So, you want a new Hi-Fi?

  • Thread starter Thread starter DRZ
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The difference between copper and silver might be measurable... but not by your ears. Go ahead and claim your million dollar prize if you really have super ears and come back and post about it...

re the amps... I'm not saying they all have the same features etc.. just the idea of buying one for better sound quality is flawed.... its been demonstrated countless times so if you could actually tell the difference under the same conditions perhaps you should contact the guy offering a 10k prize....

Richard Clark is an audio professional. Like many audiophiles, he originally believed the magazines and marketing materials that different amplifier topologies and components colored the sound in unique, clearly audible ways. He later did experiments to quantify and qualify these effects, and was surprised to find them inaudible when volume and other factors were matched.

His challenge is an offer of $10,000 of his own money to anyone who could identify which of two amplifiers was which, by listening only, under a set of rules that he conceived to make sure they both measure “good enough” and are set up the same. Reports are that thousands of people have taken the test, and none has passed the test. Nobody has been able to show an audible difference between two amps under the test rules.

[...]

Amplifier requirements

The amplifiers in the test must be operated within their linear power capacity. Power capacity is defined as clipping or 2% THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less. This means that if one amplifier has more power (Watts) than the other, the amplifiers will be judged within the power range of the least powerful amplifier .

The levels of both left and right channels will be adjusted to match to within .05 dB. Polarity of connections must be maintained so that the signal is not inverted. Left and Right cannot be reversed. Neither amplifier can exhibit excessive noise. Channel separation of the amps must be at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

All signal processing circuitry (e.g. bass boost, filters) must be turned off, and if the amplifier still exhibits nonlinear frequency response, an equalizer will be set by Richard Clark and inserted inline with one of the amps so that they both exhibit identical frequency response. The listener can choose which amplifier gets the equalizer .

[...]

How can audio consumers use the results of this test?

When purchasing an amplifier, they can ignore the subjective sound quality claims of marketers. Many amplifier marketers will claim or imply that their amplifiers have some special topology, materials, or magic that makes the sound clearly superior to other amps at all volume levels. Many consumers pay several times more than they otherwise would for that intangible sound quality they think they are getting. This test indicates that the main determinant of sound quality is the amount of power the amplifier can deliver. When played at 150W, an expensive 100W measured amplifier will clip and sound worse than a cheap 200W measured amp.

Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?

No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world. The gain setting of an amplifier can make huge differences in how an amplifier sounds, as can details like how crossovers or other filters are set. When played very loud (into clipping), the amplifier with more power will generally sound better than a lower powered amp.

Most people perceive slight differences in amplitude as quality differences rather than loudness. The louder component sounds “faster, more detailed, more full”, not just louder. This perceptual phenomenon is responsible for many people thinking they liked the sound of a component when really they just liked the way it was set up.
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You can believe whatever you like, treat equipment like its a magic black box, buy into audiphile myths, drop brand names in here... if it makes you feel better to own XYZ amp and you're happy to shell out way over the odds for it then fine, if you want some features that XYZ amp offers then that's cool too... I'm not criticising spending money on amps... (though wasting money on monster cables is a bit silly) - I'm just pointing out that as far as accurate reproduction of sound is concerned then there have been enough blind tests out there to show that expensive audiophile amps, CD players etc.. don't make any discernible difference.

I'm not necessarily trying to change your views, you're welcome to your own beliefs... but the other guy posting some sensible comments in here was accused of trolling... given that the hi-fi publications and salespeople in shops etc.. will push the standard audiophile myths I thought it would be worth pointing out in this sticky thread that people don't actually have to shell out their hard earned cash on snake oil and that there are real objective tests out there to prove it. Still people believe what they want and once you've bought into a belief its harder to drop it.
 
I do not really get why this is a sticky, it seems more like the recommendations of an avid What Hi Fi reader.

The only way to buy an audio system is 1st state your budget, 2nd state your room size, 3rd state your placement constraints, 4th state your souce file, whether it be MP3, a PC, a tape deck, records or CD.

Give most of the magazines a wide berth, as much of what is posted is proofed and vetted opinion that is paid well for. Rarely do you see honest opinion, and usually most of it is contrived by a reviewers personal opinion and the visual aesthetics. Take forum views with a pinch of salt and totally disregard any forum experts that state cables/cd/amps/supports all sound the same, and also disregard any forum expert who states cables/CD players/amps/supports do not all sound the same.

Edit, and as for Richard Clark's test, maybe Google it a bit more, there is a reason no one has passed it, and a reason audio manufacturers are not interested, evident with a decent amount of reading and thought, but most of all, you should note it was with regard to car audio, and not as an intent to prove any audiophile claim, but show that within specific parameters of a controlled test environment an audio signal is the same if both amps meet the same parameters which is somewhat forgotten in my myths of interweb land.

The test will never stop an audiophile prefering the sound of a triode valve preamp in comparison to solid state, nor cover a tube power amps saturation when trying to push a difficult speaker at low frequencies, or valve microphony, or current delivery. As for differences in amplifiers, try the Boston Lynfield 500L, or the TDL Reference Standard, or Apogee Scintilla loudspeakers with various solid state amps that state similar technical specifications, try reproducing a drum kit, a full 24/192 recording with no compression, with any old amplifier and a pair of PMC BB5. It would seem rather harsh and unfair to claim the manufacturers and owners of bespoke high end audio have £10'000 amplifier systems that you could replace with a £500 AV amp and hear no difference with.

In the average UK home though, with your average music source on a pair of two way stand mounts, in an average sparse plasterboard walled room with wooden flooring and a 50" tv and the usual living in decor, most audio reviews and high end equipment is out the window and a visual connection makes a bigger difference to what many hear.
 
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I could help update in terms of DAC, digital music and some basics to help dispel some snake oil. Let me put together something and add to the thread.
 
DRZ said:
I know of several people personally that found the more balanced, flatter sound of a good hifi hard to listen to (fatiguing) compared to their one-box system because of a few psychoacoustical issues/nuances of the brain). Think of it like thinking a Fiesta was the best thing ever then going to a race-prepped Kart.
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I find a lot of systems fatiguing but the reason is they just sound loud, they don't sound good. Even systems costing thousands can just sound really horrible.
To me a good sound system is very simple. If you listen to a system and you feel the need to play it all the time and keep turning the volume up and up then it's a good sound system, if you don't then it's a bad one. There are bargains to be had if you know your stuff but my solution is to buy expensive, lol.
 
FurryLemon said:
No.

Proper speakers driven by a stereo amp will always be better (if spending similar amounts). Sonos is just an easy way to have multi room audio without having to chase cable through walls/ceilings.
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I find the Sonos speakers generally of good quality. You can also buy Sonos amps so you can connect them to your choice of speakers. I have a couple setup like that.
 
I have a challenge you folks may be able to advise me on. I want to fit something with similar attributes of a Denon D41 DAB (RMS power/CD/DAB tuner) into a 6cm high shelf slot. Width & depth not a problem, just height. Any suggestions welcomed: new or second hand components OK.
 
sastusbulbas said:
The test will never stop an audiophile prefering the sound of a triode valve preamp in comparison to solid state, nor cover a tube power amps saturation when trying to push a difficult speaker at low frequencies, or valve microphony, or current delivery. As for differences in amplifiers, try the Boston Lynfield 500L, or the TDL Reference Standard, or Apogee Scintilla loudspeakers with various solid state amps that state similar technical specifications, try reproducing a drum kit, a full 24/192 recording with no compression, with any old amplifier and a pair of PMC BB5. It would seem rather harsh and unfair to claim the manufacturers and owners of bespoke high end audio have £10'000 amplifier systems that you could replace with a £500 AV amp and hear no difference with.

In the average UK home though, with your average music source on a pair of two way stand mounts, in an average sparse plasterboard walled room with wooden flooring and a 50" tv and the usual living in decor, most audio reviews and high end equipment is out the window and a visual connection makes a bigger difference to what many hear.
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I think the word here is preference.

I remember listening to a number of setups when I bought my first hifi, I took my time.
* Audiolab 8000 - lovely amp, detailed clear, stark darkness but it just sounded too stark (perhaps the speakers the dealer had paired them with)
* Mission Cyrus - creamy, horrid, no clarity and just yuck
* Musical Fidelity A220 - paired with castle harlechs, perhaps slightly less detail than the audio lab, but infinitely more listenable. I found myself listening to the music rather than the production.

I have heard a Ruak speaker system with chord mono blocks, pre and a massive Rel sub. It sounded simply clearer and more realistic than my Myrad MC100, MF A220 and Harlech setup. However for me the little setup does just as well in making me hum along.

Could I tell between my old Harmon Kardon AV amp and the A220 - yes. The HK had far less ability. Could I tell the difference between a mate's top of the range Yam and my A220, yes but was it worse? Long term listening I think so but for wandering around the house with music on.. I doubt it. From a character perspective I preferred the A220.

Now I wouldn't consider myself a "tube" person but I do recognise I like clarity but don't mind if it's not entirely true from a class A perspective. Not 'tubey' but I will be going down the tube route for a little DIY headphone amp. The further iterations on that headphone amp are likely to focus on clarity and less tube warmth but still using tubes (you can cancel out some of the harmonics for example).
 
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I think the quality of the power supply has a lot to do with the sound quality, and over the years I've seen good and bad. A torroidal transformer costs more than an ordinary one, so do large capacitors, and a decent power supply needs a few of differing capacities to work well, and they all cost money.
 
Flake87 said:
I think the quality of the power supply has a lot to do with the sound quality, and over the years I've seen good and bad. A torroidal transformer costs more than an ordinary one, so do large capacitors, and a decent power supply needs a few of differing capacities to work well, and they all cost money.
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An amp cost should really be the cost of the power supply and some sprinkles to go on top.
 
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