Spec me an economical car.. please..

[[TW]Fox]

how am i personaly attacking you?

You are not, but from the tone it seemed like it was going that way. Us slagging each other helps nobody, but us arguing about whether to buy diesel or petrol makes useful reading for others.

here you go
http://www.virtual-showroom.co.uk/s...=vauxhall&laf=vauxhall&nuvvpath=b&sessionid=0
glasses prices, i used google to get them

They are Glass's trade-in prices, not retail prices. As I said - you wont find retail prices on Google.

and what im syaing is, by the time the car becomes sub 5k, you can find a diesel for the same price as a petrol regardles and you are saying im wrong and you jump up with glasses prices to prove me wrong......

You can find a diesel for the same price, but generally speaking it will be older, or higher mileage, or less favourable condition. If a diesel is the same as a petrol there will usually be a reason why - the diesel model is more popular, more people want it, and supply and demand therefore dictates that it will cost more.

I simply used Glass's figures to illustrate this concept because it's a fairly useful indicator - it's hardly Parkers (Though they'll show you the same thing).

Ask a car dealer what he'd rather have on his lot (Well, if we ignore potential reliability), a diesel Focus or a petrol one. He'll want the diesel one - they sell all day long. People want diesel - they think diesel is the answer to everything, and the more expensive fuel gets the more apparent this will become.

This can only mean that petrol cars get even cheaper - as demand for diesel cars rise, demand for petrol cars has to fall if overall car demand remains constant.

Again - it's basic supply and demand - and nowhere is this more apparent than the used market, because you cant make more used cars to satisfy demand.

 

[Cupra]

You can find a diesel for the same price, but generally speaking it will be older, or higher mileage, or less favourable condition. If a diesel is the same as a petrol there will usually be a reason why - the diesel model is more popular, more people want it, and supply and demand therefore dictates that it will cost more.

usualy, not always.
Like i said, if you look then they are the same price aslong as you dont just jump in and buy the first one you see

Ask a car dealer what he'd rather have on his lot (Well, if we ignore potential reliability), a diesel Focus or a petrol one. He'll want the diesel one - they sell all day long. People want diesel - they think diesel is the answer to everything, and the more expensive fuel gets the more apparent this will become.

This can only mean that petrol cars get even cheaper - as demand for diesel cars rise, demand for petrol cars has to fall if overall car demand remains constant.

Again - it's basic supply and demand - and nowhere is this more apparent than the used market, because you cant make more used cars to satisfy demand.

the thing is fox, the op isnt talking about in 2-3 years down the line he is asking about now, so how does the prices of diesel cars going up in the future help the op now? Other than making it a better decision to get a diesel as it could well be worth more than the petrol varient when he sells is, after all you keep saying "diesel cars cost more to buy" that can only mean "you will get more when you sell it?"
so the buying price is still just as errelevent even if you were right

 

[[TW]Fox]

usualy, not always.
Like i said, if you look then they are the same price aslong as you dont just jump in and buy the first one you see

No, they are not the same price.

Why would they be the same price? If they were the same price, less people would buy the petrol one than currently is the case, meaning...

...price will fall.

the thing is fox, the op isnt talking about in 2-3 years down the line he is asking about now, so how does the prices of diesel cars going up in the future help the op now?

I am merely trying to explain to you how supply and demand works.

Again, show me somewhere that shows for a fact that a diesel car doing the same milage as a petrol car goes wrong more frequently?

Again, this one is pretty simple logic as well (I doubt figures are available that will factualise it in the way you want).

A, say, 2.0 TDCi Mondeo has:

a) 4 commonrail high pressure piezo injectors.
b) A high pressure fuel pump
c) A turbocharger
d) Various additional ancilliary components for emissions regulation purposes

A 2.0 petrol Mondeo does not have any of these things - and what a car doesn't have cannot break, can it?

In addition, the diesel's higher torque at the flywheel can cause quite significant issues with the dual mass flywheels fitted to almost all diesels these days in an attempt to calm the vibration you get from the engine. Changing the DMF (And clutch) on a TDCi Mondeo books at something ridiculous like 12 HOURS.

These are quite eyewatering expenses. Petrol engines are relatively simple in comparison.

 

[Aleksandrs]

So arguing aside. If I find diesel cars are £1k and equivalent petrol cars also cost £1k, which is better?

 

[[TW]Fox]

So arguing aside. If I find diesel cars are £1k and equivalent petrol cars also cost £1k, which is better?

At that end of the market you are almost into banger territory where many diesels will have much older engines - such as Peugeot/Citroens 1.9 TD. These are considerably more reliable than the more modern versions.

If they were both the same price and the diesel was clearly superior in every way, then everyone would buy the diesel, and therefore... shock... suddenly they are no longer the same price anymore.

 

[Cupra]

At that end of the market you are almost into banger territory where many diesels will have much older engines - such as Peugeot/Citroens 1.9 TD. These are considerably more reliable than the more modern versions.

If they were both the same price and the diesel was clearly superior in every way, then everyone would buy the diesel, and therefore... shock... suddenly they are no longer the same price anymore.

why would the diesel be "clearly superior in every way"?

i thought the cars in question were identical other than engine?

 

[[TW]Fox]

why would the diesel be "clearly superior in every way"?

I said 'if'.

i thought the cars in question were identical other than engine?

The cars in my example were, yes

 

[Cupra]

I said 'if'.



The cars in my example were, yes

the cars in your example were not tho fox, go google some reviews, the tdci is better in soooooo many ways, so its a better car all round is it not?

so are you paying more for the diesel engine or a better car?

 

[[TW]Fox]

the cars in your example were not tho fox, go google some reviews, the tdci is better in soooooo many ways, so its a better car all round is it not?

Look, I picked the 1.6 Zetec trim with 63k miles on a 54 plate with both engine types to demonstrate my point. I'm really not even sure what point you are trying to make now?

so are you paying more for the diesel engine or a better car?

You are paying more for the diesel engine - the rest of the car is the same - whether that engine makes the car a better car is entirely up to you.

 

[Cupra]

Look, I picked the 1.6 Zetec trim with 63k miles on a 54 plate with both engine types to demonstrate my point. I'm really not even sure what point you are trying to make now?



You are paying more for the diesel engine - the rest of the car is the same - whether that engine makes the car a better car is entirely up to you.

if the diesel car is a better car all round how are you just paying for the engine? you are paying for an all round better car

nobody would pay the same price for a car not as good meaning the lesser car would be less sought after thus making the price go down so it sells would it not?

supply and demand fox, i thought you knew how that worked already?

 

[Hilly]

What are you talking about Cupra, how are Diesel cars better all around?!

Everything on identical petrol + diesel models are the same, apart from a few engine parts. What's hard to understand about that?! I don't see how this makes one car superior?

 

[[TW]Fox]

if the diesel car is a better car all round how are you just paying for the engine? you are paying for an all round better car

Because the only key difference is the engine - they are otherwise the same car. You are paying for the engine - if the engine makes the car better for you, great?

I'm really not sure what tangent you've decided to off on here...

nobody would pay the same price for a car not as good meaning the lesser car would be less sought after thus making the price go down so it sells would it not?

supply and demand fox, i thought you knew how that worked already?

Supply and demand is based on perceived needs and wants.

Why do I get the feeling I am wasting my time here?

If you want to beleive that a diesel costs no more than a petrol on the used market then fine.

 

[Cupra]

What are you talking about Cupra, how are Diesel cars better all around?!

Everything on identical petrol + diesel models are the same, apart from a few engine parts. What's hard to understand about that?! I don't see how this makes one car superior?

where did i make the claim that "Diesel cars are better all round"

care to back that up with a quote hilly?

If you want to beleive that a diesel costs no more than a petrol on the used market then fine.

go to auto trader, pistonheads ect, shop around you will see there is no price diffrence between the 2 other than on paper, in the real world both can be had for the same price

 

[InvaderGIR]

go to auto trader, pistonheads ect, shop around you will see there is no price diffrence between the 2 other than on paper, in the real world both can be had for the same price

You contradicted yourself...but we'll ignore that. I challenge you to go out and find two IDENTICAL cars from the same dealer but one is petrol one is diesel. which is more?

 

[[TW]Fox]

You contradicted yourself...but we'll ignore that. I challenge you to go out and find two IDENTICAL cars from the same dealer but one is petrol one is diesel. which is more?

Yes, this is the best way to do it.

And it MUST be the *same* dealer to ensure consistency, otherwise regional variations, sales package variations etc etc might account for the variance.

Also keep it to day to day mid sized hatchbacks as I honestly think I'll rage if he comes back showing us that he's right because he has found a 330i that costs more than a 320d.

 

[Hilly]

how am i personaly attacking you?
you statred that because glasses says the diesel varient is more expencive then all focus 1.6 diesel's MUST cost more than a petrol, not to mention the 1.6 tdci is a better all round car than the 1.6 petrol version so how is it even like for like?


here you go
http://www.virtual-showroom.co.uk/s...=vauxhall&laf=vauxhall&nuvvpath=b&sessionid=0
glasses prices, i used google to get them

and what im syaing is, by the time the car becomes sub 5k, you can find a diesel for the same price as a petrol regardles and you are saying im wrong and you jump up with glasses prices to prove me wrong......

the thing is cupra, you've gone off on a massive tangent here... For what reason I have no idea! What are you trying to prove? As Diesel cars DO cost more than petrol. If you honestly believe that this isn't the case please provide a number of car advertisements where diesels are cheaper or the same price than their equivilent petrol alternatives. Condition and mileage must be the same too, it has to be like for like.

 

[Hilly]

how am i personaly attacking you?
you statred that because glasses says the diesel varient is more expencive then all focus 1.6 diesel's MUST cost more than a petrol, not to mention the 1.6 tdci is a better all round car than the 1.6 petrol version so how is it even like for like?


here you go
http://www.virtual-showroom.co.uk/s...=vauxhall&laf=vauxhall&nuvvpath=b&sessionid=0
glasses prices, i used google to get them

and what im syaing is, by the time the car becomes sub 5k, you can find a diesel for the same price as a petrol regardles and you are saying im wrong and you jump up with glasses prices to prove me wrong......

Yes, this is the best way to do it.

And it MUST be the *same* dealer to ensure consistency, otherwise regional variations, sales package variations etc etc might account for the variance.

Also keep it to day to day mid sized hatchbacks as I honestly think I'll rage if he comes back showing us that he's right because he has found a 330i that costs more than a 320d.

Please Cupra, please find a 330i that costs mroe than a 320d

 

[Dangerous Dave]

One thing you need to take into consideration when comparing the two cars is how much more the diesel will be worth over the petrol when you come to sell it. You won't make back the full difference but I would expect £300-400 more. The diesel will be much easier to sell on over the petrol model as everyone wants a diesel to save money even if in reality it won't.

I do agree older petrols are more reliable than modern diesels but modern petrols are just as bad if not worse in some cases.

 

[jfp]

something like a 1ltre yaris would do the job, easy to maintain, 50ish mpg, not the fastest 0-60 put with a few tweeks can get it handling extremely well

 

[Joshy]

I know it has been mentioned earlier but you really, REALLY have to understand and appreciate that if you're doing lots of very short, start/stop journeys your fuel economy is going to be in the toilet no matter what you drive.