** Spoilers ** Carling Cup Quarter-Finals [Nov 30th-1st Dec]

I dunno what to think about last night. Well done to West Ham, by far the better team, but i'm sure their fans would prefer Premiership survival than a cup run.

It terrifies me though that the players we put out last night were so poor. If we get an injury to NV/RF then we're absolutely stuffed. And it's not like Rio is averse to the odd lengthy absence.

I also expected more from the midfield but then even the first choice players are dreadfully inconsistent. Hence the poor performance up front, Hernandez can't work his magic when there's nothing to work with.

All in all, an eye opener. Certainly makes me worry about our strength in depth.
 
He said the Carling cup is a nothing cup, and doesn't seem to care about it, like frankly any top 4 team with any self respect and real ambition. Theres no need to risk your first team in a game in a cup you don't give a monkeys about, they lost, so what, you didn't lose any first team squad members to injury, with some big games coming up, result all around. Considering the further you went, the more first teamers would be drafted in to Carling Cup duty going out isn't a bad thing, better fixture schedual, less injury problems, more rest, etc, etc.

A cup's better than no cup(Arsenal) but when you're top of the league and year on year are pushing for league title, fa cup, champs league, the Carling cup is a very distant 4th priority.

Evans, like SOO many woeful players in the top teams, get carried by better players around them. Didn't he mostly play alongside Vidic as he came into the team, but more often in the past year or so has played without Vidic for various reasons.

Put an Evans alongside a Vidic, Evra, VDS, you have people to cover up his mistakes, put him alongside pig, an inexperienced but not at all bad Smalling, Fabio, O'shea, and the mistakes are more obvious and more costly. He's never looked very good, but its about mistakes costing you.

I always say it, people don't notice how crap Song is, till we play against a Chelsea or Utd, and his mistakes directly cost us goals, that directly cost us games, while against a Wigan/Pompie his mistakes don't cost us goals, or points, and people ignore the mistakes.

What happened to Giggs though, has he really lost absolutely all pace now, is Fergie protecting him playing him in the middle, or is he incapable on the wing. His strength was always running with the ball, not passing and controlling a game from the middle, he was truly rubbish last night and even when he's poor (which everyone is now and then) I can't remember him being so completely ineffective before.
 
I dunno what to think about last night. Well done to West Ham, by far the better team, but i'm sure their fans would prefer Premiership survival than a cup run.

It terrifies me though that the players we put out last night were so poor. If we get an injury to NV/RF then we're absolutely stuffed. And it's not like Rio is averse to the odd lengthy absence.

I also expected more from the midfield but then even the first choice players are dreadfully inconsistent. Hence the poor performance up front, Hernandez can't work his magic when there's nothing to work with.

All in all, an eye opener. Certainly makes me worry about our strength in depth.

I think this is where that West Ham 2nd in command guy who left had a point, he said beyond 3-4 top notch players, EPL teams have surprisingly little quality. You look at Barca's bench and drool, Real have a fantastic bench, though a tad unfair as both spend a LOT of cash.

But Utd/Chelsea's bench looks, pretty woeful, and just a few injuries and both teams fall apart quite easily. Arsenal are a little weird, we have some better bench players than first teamers, and a lot of utter rubbish throughout the squad. Chelsea/Utd/Arsenal teams compared to 5-6 years ago, have very few truly top players, and very weak benches. All three clubs seem to be happy to keep utter crap players on the books for years. Ferreira, and then they spent big on ramires and Zirkov who are rubbish and completely inept backup.

Theo, Denilson, Diaby, Song vs Vieira, Gilberto, Pires/Henry, Edu, etc.

Giggs vs old giggs(should have taken that pony out back to be put down a few seasons back), Anderson vs Keane, Rafael/Brown/o'shea vs old Neville.

The top four, if you included Liverpool, 5 years ago vs now, are hugely hugely worse teams, and I really can't see why its happened, just throwing away very good money on very bad(or average) players.
 
Well I think it would be hard to bring in top notch quality players to warm the bench. A lot of them would simply kick up a fuss if they weren't playing week in, week out.

I firmly believe Chelsea have the strongest squad. Sure, they have lemons like all teams do, but they have the least, and can at least field a midfield that can be relied on to play semi-well.
 
The top four, if you included Liverpool, 5 years ago vs now, are hugely hugely worse teams, and I really can't see why its happened, just throwing away very good money on very bad(or average) players.

Possibly the good players that are now about being spread too thinly over various teams? Or the shifted focus to youth development maybe? Bigger sense of entitlement to 1st team football amongst any player with half a clue?
 
I dunno what to think about last night. Well done to West Ham, by far the better team, but i'm sure their fans would prefer Premiership survival than a cup run.

It terrifies me though that the players we put out last night were so poor. If we get an injury to NV/RF then we're absolutely stuffed. And it's not like Rio is averse to the odd lengthy absence.

I also expected more from the midfield but then even the first choice players are dreadfully inconsistent. Hence the poor performance up front, Hernandez can't work his magic when there's nothing to work with.

All in all, an eye opener. Certainly makes me worry about our strength in depth.

Agreed, the one shining light though is that Fergie must now be questioning Evans place as a back up CB, Smalling did well and at least he knows how to defend, if one of RF or NV is injured then Smalling can step in. If both are out we're ****ed.

Hernandez had next to no service at all, when you have the likes of O'**** as the only outlet down the right it makes things difficult, hence why he switched him with Fabio.

We have all seen what Hernandez can do when he does have decent service.

All in all I'm not bothered by last nights result, it's happened countless times before but all of a sudden its the end of the world in some peoples eyes, DM summed it up perfectly, the 'top 4' don't want to be going for the CC and they certainly won't risk first teamers to go for it unless it's against eachother.
 
So who exactly did you want him to play last night then if not the first teamers?

Have we got another team somewhere that I don't know about :confused:

All you did was moan about how they wasn't good enough to play against a Prem team in the QF's of the cup. Or did you want a mix of youth and experience? A few first teamers to give West Ham the run around when there are far more important games coming up in the next couple of weeks?

Bar from a few tweaks (I'd rather have Brown at right back and someone partnering Hernandez) I didn't have a problem with the lineup. I had a problem with the tactics and the performance. At no point did I say the likes of Rooney should be playing.
 
Bar from a few tweaks (I'd rather have Brown at right back and someone partnering Hernandez) I didn't have a problem with the lineup. I had a problem with the tactics and the performance. At no point did I say the likes of Rooney should be playing.

You said he should have played a team capable of beating a Prem team.

You also said "Why has he changed a winning formula OMGZ!!! we put in a great performace and then he goes and changes it blah blah ****ing blah"

So what exactly are you trying to say?
 
Yeah and we've had some dire performances, we finally get a game where we actually perform to our ability...and he goes and changes it :confused:

Is what you said.

In my mind that is you moaning that he should have played the same team and system that battered Blackburn.

But keep back tracking :)
 
You said he should have played a team capable of beating a Prem team.

You also said "Why has he changed a winning formula OMGZ!!! we put in a great performace and then he goes and changes it blah blah ****ing blah"

So what exactly are you trying to say?

Is what you said.

In my mind that is you moaning that he should have played the same team and system that battered Blackburn.

But keep back tracking :)

I'm not back tracking at all, by winning formula I meant tactics (so two strikers). He never keeps the same lineup so I obviously didn't mean that.
 
LuLz whatever!

He's been playing 4-5-1 for the last 2 years away from home, why all of a sudden are you against it?

We would have been murdered last night if he played 2 strikers, after the 20 minute mark it was clear for everyone to see that they were bossing the midfield, so at that point you would have changed it and put another striker on for a midfielder?

In fact don't bother :D
 
Because we don't have the players to do it any more, that's why.

We were murdered last night. Perhaps if we'd gone out more positive instead of letting West Ham come at us then things might have been different? I fail to see how taking off Giggs or one of the wingers and sticking a striker on would have meant us getting even more of a hiding?
 
Because we don't have the players to do it any more, that's why.

We were murdered last night. Perhaps if we'd gone out more positive instead of letting West Ham come at us then things might have been different? I fail to see how taking off Giggs or one of the wingers and sticking a striker on would have meant us getting even more of a hiding?

So you think one less body in midfield when we were getting absolutely battered in those areas wouldn't have made a difference.

Like I said Shami, don't bother any more :D
 
Agreed, the one shining light though is that Fergie must now be questioning Evans place as a back up CB, Smalling did well and at least he knows how to defend, if one of RF or NV is injured then Smalling can step in. If both are out we're ****ed.

Exactly. I've gone from being out-and-out concerned about midfield to being concerned about how we'll cope at the back without our first choices.

Hernandez had next to no service at all, when you have the likes of O'**** as the only outlet down the right it makes things difficult, hence why he switched him with Fabio.

It's about time we made Rafael first choice. I think he's ready and should play whenever fit, like Evra.

All in all I'm not bothered by last nights result, it's happened countless times before but all of a sudden its the end of the world in some peoples eyes, DM summed it up perfectly, the 'top 4' don't want to be going for the CC and they certainly won't risk first teamers to go for it unless it's against eachother.

I'm a bit bothered because I want to win everything! And it does hurt to lose to a team at the bottom of the league, no matter what competition.

But as said, the poor showing of what I would consider squad players has really given me a reality check. But then, what do we do? Pique turned out well but then he wasn't happy bench warming.

That's the sacrifice you make. You have players who aren't as good as the first choice XI, and as a result they're happy to warm the bench. See early Chelsea and now Citeh as examples of what happens when you have world class players sitting out matches.
 
There were tree or four players that played last night that can do a decent job with the 1st team, but they have to be surrounded by quality players to really show it.

The likes of Fabio/Rafael /Smalling/Chicho and to a lesser extent Macheda (who seems to have lost a little confidence) are all decent first team squad players - but to ask them to be the foundantions of the team as they were basically last night was never going to work.

The core central midfield last night was crucially wrong which especially didnt help either attack or defence (little protection for the defence and unable to keep up the pressure to assist the attack) - really didnt help that there wee three people all just back from injury (Fletcher, Giggs and Anderson)
 
Exactly. I've gone from being out-and-out concerned about midfield to being concerned about how we'll cope at the back without our first choices.



It's about time we made Rafael first choice. I think he's ready and should play whenever fit, like Evra.



I'm a bit bothered because I want to win everything! And it does hurt to lose to a team at the bottom of the league, no matter what competition.

But as said, the poor showing of what I would consider squad players has really given me a reality check. But then, what do we do? Pique turned out well but then he wasn't happy bench warming.

That's the sacrifice you make. You have players who aren't as good as the first choice XI, and as a result they're happy to warm the bench. See early Chelsea and now Citeh as examples of what happens when you have world class players sitting out matches.

Agreed on all points, the Rafael situation is a dodgy one, he is the best we have but can still make dodgy decisions at times, like the cross for Cole's goal last night, he should have ushered him out to the by line not let him come inside and whip it in.

He needs to cut out the rash challenges as well, he has enough pace to keep up with most wingers but he prefers to pull them down a lot of the time :/

It really doesn't bother me though losing last night, it's the CC that we steam roller when we want to win it, it's been a joke for years, a chance for the top teams to blood the youngsters, we've been doing it for years and have gone out countless times before to poorer opposition.

I said it last night, I would rather we play the kids/reserves/squad players in the CC than getting the likes of Rooney/Scholes/Nani injured playing pointless games.
 
Well I think it would be hard to bring in top notch quality players to warm the bench. A lot of them would simply kick up a fuss if they weren't playing week in, week out.

I firmly believe Chelsea have the strongest squad. Sure, they have lemons like all teams do, but they have the least, and can at least field a midfield that can be relied on to play semi-well.

Chelsea simply do not, have you watched them AT ALL this year. Even before the ridiculous run of poor games, they've had midfield injuries and are at least 8 points off where they were last season at the same point, thats pretty awful, and yet a worse criticism of the rest of the league, 8 points worse off, they should NOT be second.

Zirkov, Ramires, Kalou, Ferreira should simply not be at the club, Malouda when he's bad is completely worthless, he got a VERY lucky run last year, got most of his goals in lucky dominating games against weak teams again this year, the ball goes through him FAR to much at the moment and he fluffs up so many passes, he's not in the same league as someone like Pires, Nani, Ronaldo, Messi, he's magnitudes worse than those guys, and in all bout 20 games in, is it 4 years at Chelsea, he's been abysmal. Defensively they have Cole, Terry, Alex(when fit) Ivanovic, Bosingwa, with utterly no depth beyond them at all, even Arsenal have good fullback reserves and some quality 3rd choice CB's. Chelsea after Essien, Mikel, Lampard, don't have a single reliable quality midfielder or winger, they have two strikers and Sturridge who I think looks quite decent but 90% of top four teams have 3-4 proper strikers and THEN a couple of potential up and comers. Chelsea have the weakest and smallest "first team" squad of any top side in any top league to be honest.

Which is shocking with what they've spent, this is largely because Mourinho bought sooo much rubbish who left after a year, and Abramovich, quite fairly, got fed up with 100's of mils of players walking out the door a year later and took control off Mourinho.

The first 11 when fully fit, are formidible, Essien, marlaria-less Drogba is insanely good, Lampard is the most reliable player in the league full stop and has been for 7-8 years now, Terry's a git, but a HUGE influence and presence in that side, Cole may be a ****, but the worlds best left back. Beyond the first 11 though, theres very very very slim pickings.

Arsenal midfield who I'd actually want to play, Arshavin, Fabregas, Wilshire, Nasri, Eboue, Rosicky, RVP and Bendtner can play there pretty well on the wing, Gibbs, Lansbury, JET, then guys who play and can perform against most of the league, Diaby, Song, Denilson.


Chelsea's midfield is Essien, Lampard, Mikel, and if generous Malouda and Kalou, with what one youngster whose VERY young and very slight and not there yet, and no one else worth a damn, that isn't even close to "strong".

Possibly the good players that are now about being spread too thinly over various teams? Or the shifted focus to youth development maybe? Bigger sense of entitlement to 1st team football amongst any player with half a clue?

yes, I was going to add but didn't, guys like N'zogbia really are very good and he's been waiting for a top 4 club to pick him up for 4-5 years, frankly, 5-6 years ago any of the top four would have got him years ago, and he'd be in and out of the starting line up as a rotation but good enough player. Theres been quite a spreading out of the quality players, but then, theres sooo many it really shouldn't have been hard to pick these guys up. I mean, Arsenal could have sold Diaby/Denilson years ago and bought N'zogbia. I don't think its unwillingness to spend, its more the unwillingness of the top teams to release underperforming players.

Managers that have been there too long, Wenger who rather than as starting with Arsenal, had a good squad, was critical, removed some rubbish and bought some quality players, now he's got players he bought in at 13-17, has trained them for years and years and is less "new manager in to turn club around" and more "father figure who can't be as critical as he needs to be of his youngsters".

Ok, lots of smaller teams have a couple very decent players each, but the old top four would chuck out their rubbish players and go steal all the good players, thats pretty much what made them the top 4 to start with. Transfer fee's for those types of players aren't expensive, and wages long term far outweigh the transfer fee's, and we're wasting those wages on rubbish players, so its not saving any money. I do think a new manager at Arsenal and Utd would be more critical of the players he had, and be FAR more willing to sell the rubbish players than Fergie/Wenger is.

So you think one less body in midfield when we were getting absolutely battered in those areas wouldn't have made a difference.

Like I said Shami, don't bother any more :D

Just because you're being beaten in midfield, doesn't mean you'll get beaten worse with one less player, thats just not how life works. Firstly, you don't HAVE to play in central midfield, thats entirely a choice, put on fast wingers and good fullbacks, pass around their winger and get right at their defence, you don't have to pass it in and around central midfield if you don't want. This is ignoring the fact that, 4 great midfielders will do a MUCH better job than 5 crap midfielders performing badly, its not and has NEVER been a numbers game, its ALWAYS been a quality game. Utd lost in midfield on QUALITY, not numbers, removing a badly performing player and putting on a better performing player will almost always improve the squad.

Having an extra player upfront makes the job eleventy billion percent harder for the defence, this tends to drag a central midfield player further back to keep and eye on things anyway. Playing to the other teams strength doesn't help you, it hurts you, West Ham were brilliant with Spector driving through central midfield, you can put 15 more players there to combat it, or choose to not play there, the first option costs your performance everywhere else on the pitch, the certain cuts their star performer out of the game, which would you choose?
 
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Blackpool will probably be called off.

I wouldnt count on it (snow isnt meant to be here by the weekend, but I guess pitch could still be unplayable)

Valencia is more or less a dead rubber - a win would be nice but a draw would do, and even topping the group is no guarantee of a better tie next round.

Its not completely dead, because as proven last night we cant put out the kids, and its still better to be 1st in the group

Arsenal away is a fixture in which we've played consistently well recently, and I expect us to do well again this season.

The match coming up is at OT - VP is back and they are looking better and better, although admittedly still weak at the back

Chelsea away is traditionally an awful game for us so I'd be delighted with a draw but after last season we're due a bit of luck against them (we outplayed them in the same game last year and got nothing for it!).

I recall the "free kick" that Fletcher conceeded led to the only goal that day - its an understatement that we are due a bit of luck imo, but doesnt mean we will get it lol :)

7 points from our next 3 league games would be fantastic but I'd take draws at this stage against Arsenal and Chelsea.

Yeah - three draws would feel like a disaster, but 5+ points would be great. Strangely/stupidly I would take 5 points now over winning the other two and losing to Chelsea even though it means one less point

:)
 
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