But you've been whinging on about engineers pay being close to those in childcare, but you're not an engineer you write documents for a water company. Hard to understand you really, all I take from it is you think your job should be high paid and everyone else you deem to be low skilled should get a pittance.
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Soldato
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WTAF?
I give up, your endless incorrect musings on how you think economic matters should work in the SC thread can be amusing, but this is just on a different level.
We're on a path to complete unsustainability.
If basic services cost more than the people who need them can earn, then what happens?
Like it or not, our economic system is built on a pyramid system with a larger number of vocational workers on the bottom layer and ever smaller numbers of more specialist workers stacking up the layers above.
If the bottom layer catches up to the layers above, then everyone will be poor except for the 0.1%, which is where we're heading now.
I'm sorry if you've taken my opinion as disrespect towards the childcare profession, but we should be questioning how far we want our services to go because continued progression costs money.
The more fundamental issue is that traditionally low paying jobs, which were historically more open to people without any formal qualifications, could be done and a standard of living could still be maintained on that low wage. Nowadays, cost of living issues (eg housing problems) means that minimum wage isn't enough.
It's part of the problem of Early Years being so undervalued, the recruiting pool is rather limited.
That said, I don't think it is vitally important for the workers on the floor to be that academically minded, other traits are far more important to be a good Nursery nurse. But, they are (or should be) guided by the people like my partner who set the framework and way the Nursery should run. So as long as the Managers know what they are doing and the people in the rooms can follow and implement their ideology, that's the important part.
To use your pyramid analogy...
The problem we have currently is that the pyramid is "top heavy".
The earnings of those at the very top utterly dwarf those at the bottom by such a level of disparity that it threatens to upturn the whole system.
To continue with the pyramid analogy...
If you do not take care of your foundations, your entire building will collapse, along with your fancy penthouse (top of the pyramid).
Soldato
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I wasn't specifically taking about my own job. I'm fully aware it's not making use of my skills, the point I was making was about the shrinking gap between traditionally vocational jobs and traditionally academic jobs. Historically there was a larger pay differential, now that is shrinking quite considerably.
So it's a balance shift which people including myself need to react to, which was the point about becoming a train driver as an example. A train driver now earns the same as a professional engineer does (yes I'm not a chartered engineer myself, and as explained the reason I never went for that is because it didn't pay any better in my company/sector, so what's the incentive?)
Sorry if I have disrespected childcare, but i stand by the comment that we don't need psychology degree qualified personel in the childcare sector. It is there to care for children aged 1 to 4 whilst their parents are at work. Parents should still be parenting!
I think the issue has been a culture of suppressing pay since 2008 in the UK combined with government policy squeezing the middle relentlessly. The issue is surely to raise the middle ground pay and not moan about people on NMW. The next few years of fiscal drag are going to hurt the middle earners badly.
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Soldato
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At 60k a year who wouldn't!Train driver is a sought after job anyway, and I doubt with your attitude they would take you!
I'd like to be a train driver myself being a bit of a train lover though
I think you maybe conflating need with want, yes your job and the childcare may not need degree qualified personnel, they almost certainly won't pay you more if it's not needed. However it's not about how much more you can get paid in your current job if you have X qualification, it's about how much more you'll get paid in your next job.
E.g While early years child development, child psychology and development, and a PhD in educational psychology is not 'needed' to look after 2-4 year olds in a nursery i dare say they're a requirement if you want to run your own nursery or become a child psychologist or educational psychology. It's not always about what you get in return today, just because one person isn't willing to pay you more for a qualification it doesn't mean someone else is not.
How many hours do you have to work for that then because IIRC the starting salary is something like £25-30k.
You say this now but if the Cons announced exactly that ratio tomorrow you'd be fully in support...
No I wouldn't - that sort of hypocrisy is a leftie trait as well you know.
Caporegime
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First year is 25-30k then when training is complete you will be on 50ish k as a shunter then get on the mainline or freight and 60-70k. Add more to the wage for London bias.
Competition is fierce though. Even if you get through the interviews and tests you then get put into a pool which could take another two years before you get selected for your chosen depot. I mean who doesn't want a 60k+ salary for 35 hours work.
It is also very region dependant so better if you are closer to major hubs and depots.
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Man of Honour
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Soldato
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Not sure I could, looks quite a tedious job plus having the dead man pedal beeping you every 30 secs, probably drive me batty. Can see why its tempting to so many with salary though, its very competitive I think.
If that £60k+ is for a 35hr week I'd be amazed, do you happen to have any evidence of hrs worked vs pay?
@danlightbulb - from your further explanations, there is some credence in what you are trying to explain. Your initial method of delivering it didn't help which meant that your further explanations were looked at with that in mind - and you can't really blame people for that given your pretty demeaning language in reference to people's jobs...
I think @Murphy has explained it best here tho
@danlightbulb - thoughts?
I think @Murphy has explained it best here tho
@danlightbulb - thoughts?
If you work more, you'd get overtime pay.
Drivers tend to be on 4 day weeks of 36 hours.
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Man of Honour
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Although the salary is good for the type of work the shifts and lack intellectual stimulation would be too difficult for me. I prefer working with people. But also it's just not enough cash wise to make me want to do it. Again respect to those that do it, but once you're used to a certain style of working and income it's hard to really move to something less interesting even if it is "easier". That wasn't meant to be a show off statement.
Seems like stating the obvious but like i said i was querying the 60k a year claim and how many hours would need to be worked to earn that sort of money, because it's all well and good saying someone can earn £60k a year but if you have to work 56 hrs a week, weekends, and nights to earn it that's not exactly what i guess most people would consider to be an average or even normal. I.e how many people would be willing to make those sorts of sacrifices.
Seems rather a foul up by the chancer to offer 30 hours of free child care even if the parent is only doing for example 15 hours. The point was to offer the child care to get people back to work, if you're only doing 15 hours work you should only get 15 hours free child care.
lol