Steam prices! Grey key sites! and the I love/hate developers thread - Enter if you dare!

Jono8 · 5 Feb 2016 at 13:10

Haggisman said:
People have been willing to pay those prices for the last decade at least.

In fact, PC games prices (and games prices in general) haven't really increased in line with inflation, so a £30-35 game today is actually cheaper than a £30-35 game 10 years ago (despite costing more to develop, due to the increasing complexity and time to create them, the increase in overheads such as office space, electricity etc. and the increase in staff wages).

The only difference now, is that by trying to break into a new market (by selling their games at an affordable price in those territories), those games are available to the existing market at a fraction of the previous prices.

Comparing it to 10 year a go doesnt say much though. There are SO many games out these days that the market is almost saturated really. I certainly do not have the time to even begin thinking about playing all the titles i would like to and if any of them are too expensive i just will not bother.

Most of it is all rehashed rubbish that is fun to play for a few hours at most anyway.

The market ( bot the amount of games and the audience) has grown considerably compared with 10 years a go, hence why prices have not gone up and if anything have come down. Look how quickly titles slip under £10 in the sales these days! If anything i can only see new game prices falling further.

StrongSad · 5 Feb 2016 at 13:11

I ducked out but ducking back in.....

What games have been solely developed for PC lately??

I used to play sims, Farming sim mostly. It has a massive modding scene and was ported to Console and mobile.

When FS 15 came out, there was a massive difference in how the menus and mechanics worked. On first look we thought, wow this is different, PDA gone and a map, menus driven by arrow keys. It then dawned on us that it was a console game, started on PC to iron our issues..... Yep, as soon as the Console dev started in earnest, we were dropped like a hot potato. This is also the case for another game.

So the question to add to this debate.... What percentage of PC sales represent the ROI.... This might help explain the industries continued tolerance of grey key sites....

neoboy · 5 Feb 2016 at 13:18

I think applying logic of "grey markets are bad for developers" is also not something that can be applied as a blanket term to entirety of PC gaming. Recent trend from likes of Ubisoft and EA to hike up prices as high as £70-£95 for their "complete" editions of games is quite simply bordering exploitation of consumer. Only place that extra money is going is for more marketing, executive pay and shareholders dividends. Now being a budding capitalist I have no problem with people getting paid but I don't think the developer pay is proportional to those price increases.

Something like GTA 5 that could be had for around £35 at launch on authorised sites I have no problem paying for, Rockstar are not without sin (let him who is without sin cast the first stone...) but it is a title that cost a lot to develop, fun product and strong sales will only serve for continuation of that franchise in future titles. Also a far better game technically than the half baked products released recently disguised as AAA games that take months to actually get to working order.

You also have another phenomenon that has really taken off over last decade and that's small independent studios self publishing through Steam, GoG, etc. In this scenario with publisher largely cut out and only distribution costs to consider you know that the majority of the money is going straight to the studio. In these cases I personally do prefer to pay a little more knowing that the money will be getting to the source even if I believe certain titles like Witness are priced a little high at launch price of £29.99, you know with far fewer overheads than major titles.

Twirlywoos · 5 Feb 2016 at 13:19

mid_gen said:
Take a look at The Division thread, or the X-Com one, or any new release for that matter.

Don't try and pretend that all those people poking around looking for the cheapest grey market key are people that wouldn't otherwise buy the game. "If the games were good we would pay full price!". ********.

Developers are losing out.

Surprisingly TD turned out to be decent but would I pay full price? Nope. I have the opportunity to get pay £25 instead of £65 which is a considerable saving.

You said yourself developers aren't in the industry for the money so what's changed now?

Jono8 · 5 Feb 2016 at 13:21

mid_gen said:
Don't try and pretend that all those people poking around looking for the cheapest grey market key are people that wouldn't otherwise buy the game.

They may well be. I have been interested in loads of new games but often I havent found any good deals or release prices so i just don't bother.

I would be willing to bet that a lot of people are the same and that without grey market sellers, pc game sales would be much, much smaller!

Vonhelmet · 5 Feb 2016 at 13:21

Haggisman said:
People have been willing to pay those prices for the last decade at least.

And now the market has changed, and they'll have to adapt.

mid_gen · 5 Feb 2016 at 13:45

Twirlywoos said:
Surprisingly TD turned out to be decent but would I pay full price? Nope. I have the opportunity to get pay £25 instead of £65 which is a considerable saving.

Totally understand why people do it. I'm just saying, don't pretend it doesn't effect the developers.

Twirlywoos said:
You said yourself developers aren't in the industry for the money so what's changed now?

I really don't know what you mean.

Twirlywoos · 5 Feb 2016 at 13:53

mid_gen said:
Totally understand why people do it. I'm just saying, don't pretend it doesn't effect the developers.

I really don't know what you mean.

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=29076346&postcount=564

mid_gen · 5 Feb 2016 at 13:54

Twirlywoos said:
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=29076346&postcount=564

I could earn triple what I earn now in another industry. That doesn't mean I don't want a paycheque at the end of the month and I certainly don't see what relevance it has to a discussion about grey market keys :confused:

If the average selling price of PC games is eroded by grey market selling, that means less money to pay for developers, can ultimately mean = no job for me.

I don't blame anyone for buy stuff cheap, I have done. But once again...don't pretend it doesn't have an impact.

drs101 · 5 Feb 2016 at 14:05

mid_gen said:
I could earn triple what I earn now in another industry. That doesn't mean I don't want a paycheque at the end of the month and I certainly don't see what relevance it has to a discussion about grey market keys

do grey market key sites effect your paycheque? do you think Ubi would pay your more if we didnt buy grey market keys?

krooton · 5 Feb 2016 at 14:19

Surely it's better for my £60 gaming budget getting spread to 3 developers, rather a single 1 getting £60 and the other 2 starving?

mid_gen · 5 Feb 2016 at 14:27

drs101 said:
do grey market key sites effect your paycheque?

I am a PC developer, so yes, the logical conclusion is that it does affect me.

I don't think key reselling is good for the PC Gamer. If you're developing multiplatform and you know PS4 and XB1 first month sales are going to be at UK RRP but your PC sales are going to have a huge chunk of sales at Russian RRP.....where do you spend your development budget?

hyperseven · 5 Feb 2016 at 14:29

What about EA/origin, not get market keys but the vpn loop hole has been available for years, they must know about it but fail to enforce any protection against it. Not gone under, have they.

Twirlywoos · 5 Feb 2016 at 14:30

mid_gen said:
I could earn triple what I earn now in another industry. That doesn't mean I don't want a paycheque at the end of the month and I certainly don't see what relevance it has to a discussion about grey market keys

If the average selling price of PC games is eroded by grey market selling, that means less money to pay for developers, can ultimately mean = no job for me.

I don't blame anyone for buy stuff cheap, I have done. But once again...don't pretend it doesn't have an impact.

You would still get the same salary. Why not go ask your boss?

If grey market keys are abolished tomorrow the only people who would benefit are share holders would would reap extra profits. As for the development team "maybe" they would get extra resources i.e staff.

As I said before to which you replied action trailers are a waste of money which is better spent towards developers to which you disagreed.

mid_gen · 5 Feb 2016 at 14:32

I don't think you understand how shares work.

Vonhelmet · 5 Feb 2016 at 14:36

mid_gen said:
I don't think you understand how shares work.

How so?

Divinious · 5 Feb 2016 at 15:08

So what if savvy gamers get cheap games! Devs/publishers can just cook up some overpriced DLC or season pass BS & gouge the money back from the mugs that are willing/stupid enough to pay over the odds. I feel no guilt about getting the best deal I can because I know that 9 times out of 10 these days I'm getting poorly optimised or unfinished products that have not been play tested properly or have content cut out to provide a retailer with pre-order bonuses!

CyberCrow · 5 Feb 2016 at 15:10

I thought Dev's sold the Ip to pub's like EA etc? if that is the case then how are the grey markets hurting Dev's.

Surely the financial loss would come at the pubs end,all depending on the contract.

mid_gen · 5 Feb 2016 at 15:10

Vonhelmet said:
How so?

http://performance.morningstar.com/...end_split_page&t=UBI&region=fra&culture=en-US

neoboy · 5 Feb 2016 at 15:31

Twirlywoos said:
You would still get the same salary. Why not go ask your boss?

If grey market keys are abolished tomorrow the only people who would benefit are share holders would would reap extra profits. As for the development team "maybe" they would get extra resources i.e staff.

As I said before to which you replied action trailers are a waste of money which is better spent towards developers to which you disagreed.

Well again issue is that everyone seems to be applying a blanket view on developers. In case of Ubisoft and EA they have in house developing teams, who mostly operate with set budgets although we would have no idea if there is a sales performance associated bonuses involved. It still stands to reason to assume that selling games at prices of £50 and above is only serving to improve profits for publishing and executive team.

On the other hand though you do have smaller self publishing team such as Campo Santo releasing their first game Firewatch for a reasonable £14.99 RRP (pre order discount too), Shining Rock Software with Banished, Galactic Cafe with The Stanley Parable and myriad of other studios where you know that majority of the money is going to them outside the distribution costs. In this scenario you would directly be potentially depriving the developer of profits and their potential future in the industry.

Whether that bothers one of course though is between that person and their own morals.