Steam prices! Grey key sites! and the I love/hate developers thread - Enter if you dare!

[FoxEye]

That's the thing, They are making plenty of money in the big league, If not they wouldn't be releasing game after game. When it comes to money someone is clearly earning big bucks. Now if that is not trickling down and being fairly divided by those who make the games it comes as no surprise as there's no shortage of greed in the world but the industry itself is one of the biggest money making entertainment industries out there.

By what mechanism would you expect money from, say Rockstar, to "trickle down" to the less affluent studios?

If you buy a dirt cheap key (on release) from a less well known studio, it isn't Rockstar you're hurting. I'm sure R* made a killing on GTAV. And the COD devs probably make a killing on that too.

But do other studios always strike it rich? And if they don't, can they go to Rockstar and ask for a slice of their income?

I'm really not sure how this trickle down thing is supposed to work.

 

[MissChief]

It does seem possible for a publisher to keep the price of a product high if they want to. Previous COD titles rarely dropped in price for up to a year after release and GTA V on PC has yet to drop even below £20 with most key sites hovering around £25. That shows me that if a publisher actually cares then they can do it if they wanted to. The fact that more publishers don't tells me that they're either happy with the sale, accepting of the current situation or, as is more likely, a bit of both.

 

[Jono8]

It does seem possible for a publisher to keep the price of a product high if they want to. Previous COD titles rarely dropped in price for up to a year after release and GTA V on PC has yet to drop even below £20 with most key sites hovering around £25. That shows me that if a publisher actually cares then they can do it if they wanted to. The fact that more publishers don't tells me that they're either happy with the sale, accepting of the current situation or, as is more likely, a bit of both.

Indeed.

Look at StarCraft 2. I always fancied that but the price stayed ridiculously high for years so I just gave up and I am not interested anymore.

 

[Thekwango]

off topic but Fox Eye why do you randomly put forward slashes round some words? e.g.

/entirely/

I is confused

 

[FoxEye]

But is using the top-earning 10% of studios really representative of the whole industry?

Games from smaller studios like Firaxis have dropped in price very, very quickly on release. I believe I'm correct in saying that XCOM:EU dropped by 1/2 in the first one or two months.

off topic but Fox Eye why do you randomly put forward slashes round some words? e.g.I is confused

For /emphasis/. Or *emphasis*. Or _emphasis_. Is a quick and dirty form of [ b][/ b].

 

[Thekwango]

For /emphasis/. Or *emphasis*. Or _emphasis_. Is a quick and dirty form of [ b][/ b].

ah fair enough

 

[Haggisman]

Er? No it's not, They buy key codes in bulk because they can get them cheaper and make a few quid selling them.
Multipacks are not sold to retailers so they can split them and sell the single cans. Key codes are, that's how sellers on sites like Kinguin make a profit,

You really think the hundreds (thousands? I haven't bothered counting them all) of key sellers on sites like Kinguin etc. are actually buying keys in enough bulk to get 50%+ discounts on them? Or do you think it's all just the same guy pretending to be loads of different people?

Who is this cd key wholesaler, and why aren't they selling the keys on Kinguin etc. themselves? Surely if they're able to offer 50%+ bulk discounts and still make a profit, then they'd be able to undercut the people they're selling them to?

It's not like a physical product, where the wholesaler doesn't sell the items themselves because they don't have the shopfront, staff and infrastructure in place to do so. As people have pointed out so many times; it's a digital item, therefore there is no need for infrastructure, logistics, etc.

I guess really it begs the question; if these key sites are so legit, and the publishers/developers don't mind/approve of these keys being sold on them for a fraction of the RRP, then why do the publishers/developers not sell the keys on there themselves, thus cutting out any middleman, e.g. Steam, and so maximising their own profits?

 

[davewhite04]

I guess really it begs the question; if these key sites are so legit, and the publishers/developers don't mind/approve of these keys being sold on them for a fraction of the RRP, then why do the publishers/developers not sell the keys on there themselves, thus cutting out any middleman, e.g. Steam, and so maximising their own profits?

Let's hope they don't do this(which I highly doubt). There would be no competition and they could charge what they want.

 

[Divinious]

But is using the top-earning 10% of studios really representative of the whole industry?

Games from smaller studios like Firaxis have dropped in price very, very quickly on release. I believe I'm correct in saying that XCOM:EU dropped by 1/2 in the first one or two months.



For /emphasis/. Or *emphasis*. Or _emphasis_. Is a quick and dirty form of [ b][/ b].

What studio/dev/publisher has brought this up as a concern? or is it just your own little crusade?

 

[cHk4]

When games are actually released without many bugs, day one patches etc and other issues then I'll pay full price for them, until said time I'll get them as cheap as I can.
The thing is as well the prices eventually drop so I'm just getting that saving in advance really.

 

[FoxEye]

When games are actually released without many bugs, day one patches etc and other issues then I'll pay full price for them, until said time I'll get them as cheap as I can.
The thing is as well the prices eventually drop so I'm just getting that saving in advance really.

Bugs are a fact of life with just-released software. We're talking millions (billions?) of lines of code. And multi-threading makes things even harder with modern software.

I'll agree that being tardy with bug-fixes is not on, and nor is releasing bug fixes in paid-for DLC. The studios who do this are notorious for it, so you can pick and choose who you support (with your money) and I would actively encourage you to do so

 

[Timber]

What studio/dev/publisher has brought this up as a concern? or is it just your own little crusade?

Retailers definately have. An example MCV story from 2014: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/special-report-retail-revolt-over-pc-code-strippers/0136140

And there are a few examples of journalists investigating the practice.

My guess is that the issue isn't as easy to solve (i.e. loss of sales in the regions where the cheaper games are being source, having to adopt region lock out etc.), as widespread, or as prioritised as other issues like piracy/secondhand sales. So publishers are aware of it, and adapting to it in some cases. Also I assume their reaction might be different if these codes were actually affecting console game sales as well.

I've not bought from unauthorised key sellers partly becuase of the uncertainty of the code origins and the issues sometimes raised. Also the frequency of sales and the odd purchase of big title games mean I have only bought games from Steam, GOG, Origin, Amazon, GMG, Blizzard and GAME, but again a lot of these purchases have been during sale windows. And that's more games than I can realistically play.

 

[cHk4]

Bugs are a fact of life with just-released software. We're talking millions (billions?) of lines of code. And multi-threading makes things even harder with modern software.

I'll agree that being tardy with bug-fixes is not on, and nor is releasing bug fixes in paid-for DLC. The studios who do this are notorious for it, so you can pick and choose who you support (with your money) and I would actively encourage you to do so

Yea' maybe I was being a bit too harsh but some of the games, I work closely with a dev house so I'm all too used to bugs etc but most games are horrible console ports which bring over performance issues and what not and it's a joke. I have spent thousands upon thousands of games paying full price but not so much these days... A few things that will make me part with full RRP...

Release dates being the same world wide, why should I have to wait until Friday to get a game when the US and other regions get it on Tuesday, I have to unlock via VPN and I have the extra hassle with that... I'm impatient yes but I don't think it's fair we have to wait...

Console ports holding back PC gaming in some aspects, bit like The Division dev which has basically said that.

Like yesterday I bought x-com 2 it might now have been the cheapest I could have got it but I got it from GMG for £26 I think it was, on Steam it was £35....

 

[FoxEye]

Like yesterday I bought x-com 2 it might now have been the cheapest I could have got it but I got it from GMG for £26 I think it was, on Steam it was £35....

I'm not touching it until it's £10 Bought X:EU at full RRP (x2 actually) and was bitterly disappointed. Also Firaxis/2K did not acknowledge the show-stopping bugs and left them in until the Enemy Within DLC fixed them.

And therefore I refuse to support Firaxis with a full RRP purchase this time around. They can go fizzle.

Had X:EU been (in my eyes) a great game, and had they quashed the bugs in a timely manner, I'd have bought X2 already. There's nothing wrong with being selective with your cash. Nothing at all.

 

[nashathedog]

By what mechanism would you expect money from, say Rockstar, to "trickle down" to the less affluent studios?

Why should it? If they did not work on the project it's nothing to do with them

If you buy a dirt cheap key (on release) from a less well known studio, it isn't Rockstar you're hurting. I'm sure R* made a killing on GTAV. And the COD devs probably make a killing on that too.

The point is you're not hurting anyone, If they were happy to sell codes at that price then why is it hurting them?

But do other studios always strike it rich? And if they don't, can they go to Rockstar and ask for a slice of their income?
I'm really not sure how this trickle down thing is supposed to work.

Easily confused much? Obviously I'm talking about the different people who had a hand in making the game.

Let's look at this another way, You're implying that an example of what I'm saying is that if a company like Adidas make 20 million selling trainers this quarter they should expect to support GOLA's staff?

Rubbish, You know perfectly well that isn't what's being said. As we all know the big 100 million AAA projects they were talking about in the posts I was replying too use various teams often all over the world to do specific parts of the work on a project. I'm talking about how the money side of that is dealt with. Who get's what. It's a business not a bloomin charity.

 

[nashathedog]

?

Who is this cd key wholesaler, and why aren't they selling the keys on Kinguin etc. themselves? Surely if they're able to offer 50%+ bulk discounts and still make a profit, then they'd be able to undercut the people they're selling them to?

It's not like a physical product, where the wholesaler doesn't sell the items themselves because they don't have the shopfront, staff and infrastructure in place to do so. As people have pointed out so many times; it's a digital item, therefore there is no need for infrastructure, logistics, etc.

I don't mean to be rude but you clearly know very little about just how much hassle there is in dealing with sales on a shopfloor level (digital or otherwise). The very same question can be asked why don't AMD or Nvidia sell cards directly to me, Why do I have to use middlemen?

I guess really it begs the question; if these key sites are so legit, and the publishers/developers don't mind/approve of these keys being sold on them for a fraction of the RRP, then why do the publishers/developers not sell the keys on there themselves, thus cutting out any middleman, e.g. Steam, and so maximising their own profits?

I think that's the point you are missing, They sell keys in bulk so that they do not then have to worry about the single sales side of the business, Where do you think the keys come from in the first place? You shouldn't be asking why don't they sell them individually themselves, Ask why do they sell them cheaply in bulk?

 

[FoxEye]

Rubbish, You know perfectly well that isn't what's being said. As we all know the big 100 million AAA projects they were talking about in the posts I was replying too use various teams often all over the world to do specific parts of the work on a project. I'm talking about how the money side of that is dealt with. Who get's what. It's a business not a bloomin charity.

Tbh I had no idea what you were getting at. How the various studios are organised, how they pay their employees, or distribute their earnings among their staff, is absolutely irrelevant to this thread, no?

We're simply discussing costs vs revenues from sales. We don't even have all the data for that, so to start discussing internal distribution of the revenues is just piling speculation on speculation.

I think that's the point you are missing, They sell keys in bulk so that they do not then have to worry about the single sales side of the business, Where do you think the keys come from in the first place? You shouldn't be asking why don't they sell them individually themselves, Ask why do they sell them cheaply in bulk?

Do you work in the industry, or is this also speculation? Who is selling heavily discounted keys to whom? Are they selling them directly to the key sellers?

Because a lot of grey keys are ripped out of boxed copies of games in places like India/Brazil. There's been enough written about this to be fairly certain of it.

 

[nashathedog]

You really think the hundreds (thousands? I haven't bothered counting them all) of key sellers on sites like Kinguin etc. are actually buying keys in enough bulk to get 50%+ discounts on them? Or do you think it's all just the same guy pretending to be loads of different people?

I wouldn't know who's doing what I tend to deal with the trader who comes as recommended by Kinguin even if it costs a few more quid than an unknown.
Obviously there will be plenty of people playing the system, Where in the world isn't that the case. Weeding out the bad apples isn't on us the buyer but the industry. I only use a few recommended sellers that come with 6 or 7 figure satisfaction sales.
Someone was on about getting ROTTR for 6 or 7 quid via the Windows store by using a Venezualan postcode or e-mail or something, That's dodgy dealings, I got mine for around 25 quid on Kinguin, If I want a game I'll happily pay up to about 30 quid and do so on a regular basis. I won't buy codes if they are illegal, Just like I won't download pirated films or games, and never have. The way I buy games can save me up to 20 quid at best and as long as it's legal I'll do that.
When I want a game I buy it once I can get it sub 30 quid even if I don't intend to play it yet, I own hundreds of Steam games I've yet to play, Witcher 3, Project cars, Arkham Night, RE Zero, RE4 I bought on release on Steam and still haven't played it. It's when games are 50 odd quid I look to key sites and like I said as long as it's legal and as long as the games main seller is happily selling the codes to the type of seller I trust then it's clearly not hurting the industry.

 

[nashathedog]

Tbh I had no idea what you were getting at. How the various studios are organised, how they pay their employees, or distribute their earnings among their staff, is absolutely irrelevant to this thread, no?

If you'd actually been following the conversation that my post was responding too rather than generalising what I said based on the thread then the answered would have been yes.

 

[FoxEye]

I wouldn't know who's doing what I tend to deal with the trader who comes as recommended by Kinguin even if it costs a few more quid than an unknown.
Obviously there will be plenty of people playing the system, Where in the world isn't that the case. Weeding out the bad apples isn't on us the buyer but the industry. I only use a few recommended sellers that come with 6 or 7 figure satisfaction sales.
Someone was on about getting ROTTR for 6 or 7 quid via the Windows store by using a Venezualan postcode or e-mail or something, That's dodgy dealings, I got mine for around 25 quid on Kinguin, If I want a game I'll happily pay up to about 30 quid and do so on a regular basis. I won't buy codes if they are illegal, Just like I won't download pirated films or games, and never have. The way I buy games can save me up to 20 quid at best and as long as it's legal I'll do that.
When I want a game I buy it once I can get it sub 30 quid even if I don't intend to play it yet, I own hundreds of Steam games I've yet to play, Witcher 3, Project cars, Arkham Night, RE Zero, RE4 I bought on release on Steam and still haven't played it. It's when games are 50 odd quid I look to key sites and like I said as long as it's legal and as long as the games main seller is happily selling the codes to the type of seller I trust then it's clearly not hurting the industry.

The Tomb Raider deal was by using a VPN to connect to the Ukrainian version of Microsoft's own App Store. No "dodgy dealers" involved.

You seem to be saying you don't agree with this kind of thing? Use of VPNs?

Some keys on Kinguin are Russian and need a VPN to activate. Some keys are Russian but don't have a region lock. How are they different?

Specifically how is it different to use a VPN to activate a game priced for Russians that's region locked, to just buying a non-region-locked game at Russian prices?

The only difference is the use of a region lock, but otherwise it's the same thing, no?