Stirling Moss Bigotry

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 17:14

I'm quite surprised this thread got this far without anyone mentioning Michele Mouton.

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 17:44

JRS said:
I think this is what irritates me about this nonsense the most. Newsflash Sliver - women in motorsport don't need white knights charging in on horseback to defend them against comments that you perceive to be sexist.

LoL. Whatever. Clearly you're the MAN to speak to on this topic. Sorry, next time I'll consult you before giving my opinion.

Vix · 23 Apr 2013 at 17:56

Skeeter said:
Being a woman is just one of many factors that can help people progress in motor sport.

Yeah I see the point here. In a similar kind of situation I was moaning about the, I forget, is it Nissan and Playstation deal that basically picked the best computer gamers and put them on track to find a driver. I was saying that it is unfair on the boys, and maybe girls that were spending money and time every weekend in karts from an early age, and lower series in order to make it big and these guys were just picked because they sat in their bedrooms and played games all the time. Yeah ok that was also a bit of a generalisation! Hubby then presented the argument of how is it any better than the person whos daddy's company pays for a big sponsorship deal so they can get in with the big teams.

In all honesty, if someone came to me tomorrow and offered me a drive for a F1 or BTCC team, I wouldn't care why, even if it was just because I was female. Even if they made that clear, I'd just be 'hooray for my boobies then'.

I still think though that even though we might see a female F1 or BTCC driver in the future, we wont ever see a female champion. There's just too much against us both physically and mentally.

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 18:07

Vix said:
I still think though that even though we might see a female F1 or BTCC driver in the future, we wont ever see a female champion. There's just too much against us both physically and mentally.

Vix, you should have a read of this article. I think it makes a lot of valid empirical points.

http://badgergp.com/2013/04/can-women-compete-in-formula-1-a-science-perspective-f1/

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 18:24

Vix said:
I still think though that even though we might see a female F1 or BTCC driver in the future, we wont ever see a female champion. There's just too much against us both physically and mentally.

Really? 1 crash cost Mouton the WRC title. She more than matched the men in an era when rallying was far more physically and mentally challenging than now.

Its possible, although the chances are slim simply due to the tiny numbers involved.

Vix · 23 Apr 2013 at 18:24

I think that this paragraph sums up my view:

I do concede that, on average, female brains are less able to handle spatial data than male brains. This would be the only potential sex-specific down-fall facing a female racer. However, human brains are marvellously adaptable, and spatial problem-solving is a trait that can be learned. If a woman races from early childhood, it is not unreasonable to assume that her spatial reasoning will be trained to a level that was comparable to her male peers.

Vix · 23 Apr 2013 at 18:25

Skeeter said:
Really? 1 crash cost Mouton the WRC title. She more than matched the men in an era when rallying was far more physically and mentally challenging than now.

Its possible, although the chances are slim simply due to the tiny numbers involved.

I never said anything about rallying!

Like sprinting, there is less to think about. Even less in rallying due to co driver

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 18:31

Vix said:
I never said anything about rallying! Like sprinting, there is less to think about. Even less in rallying due to co driver

Surely the understanding of pace notes and how to translate those into the course of the road is a bigger use of the spatial awareness brain function than any circuit driver will use?

The early 80s was back when there were still 5 day WRC events with thousands of KMs of stages.

JRS · 23 Apr 2013 at 19:22

Sliver said:
LoL. Whatever. Clearly you're the MAN to speak to on this topic. Sorry, next time I'll consult you before giving my opinion.

What in flying ****-land does that even mean? So I can't express an opinion about the opinion you have now? Is that how motorsport fandom works these days, guys? That might explain why I've been falling out with it of late.

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 19:31

This thread has nothing to do with motor sport.

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 19:31

JRS said:
What in flying ****-land does that even mean? So I can't express an opinion about the opinion you have now? Is that how motorsport fandom works these days, guys? That might explain why I've been falling out with it of late.

Oh please get over your self. Welcome to the internet 2013. If you're going to join a topic and make your first post an ad hominem one, what the hell sort of reply were you expecting ?

JRS · 23 Apr 2013 at 20:19

Skeeter said:
This thread has nothing to do with motor sport.

So if I may be so bold as to express an opinion

p @ Sliver) what's it doing in here instead of in the lunatic asylum of GD?

Duke · 23 Apr 2013 at 20:41

You love it really JRS <3

Vix · 24 Apr 2013 at 13:37

Skeeter said:
Surely the understanding of pace notes and how to translate those into the course of the road is a bigger use of the spatial awareness brain function than any circuit driver will use?

The early 80s was back when there were still 5 day WRC events with thousands of KMs of stages.

To be honest I have no experience of rallying, but in my opinion I think it's easier on the driver. I'd love to try it.

Sprinting for me is the easiest form of Motorsport as I'm just concentrating on the track. I hate trackdays as I'm constantly looking around me at other cars and worrying about them rather than my lines. We ran a sprint last year with 2 laps which involved more cars on track and I just failed completely.

I hope you don't think I'm arguing btw, I'm just expressing my thoughts

Janesy B · 24 Apr 2013 at 14:01

Sterling Moss is just being an old fart, Pat Moss (his sister) is one of the most successful female rally drivers. I'm sure he knows women can do well in motorsport.

Skeeter · 24 Apr 2013 at 14:28

Vix said:
To be honest I have no experience of rallying, but in my opinion I think it's easier on the driver. I'd love to try it.

Sprinting for me is the easiest form of Motorsport as I'm just concentrating on the track. I hate trackdays as I'm constantly looking around me at other cars and worrying about them rather than my lines. We ran a sprint last year with 2 laps which involved more cars on track and I just failed completely.

I hope you don't think I'm arguing btw, I'm just expressing my thoughts

Nah I guessed it was from your viewpoint of having done some motor sport, rather than a random internet opinion or trying to start a fight

Rallying isn't going to be easier in the areas that were talking about here (spatial awareness and risk aversion) than circuit racing. Yes in circuit racing you have the constantly changing situation with other cars, but the circuit it known and fixed, you know where it is, you don't need to draw the road in your mind as you drive it.
Rally drivers get a constant stream of information that they use to construct an image of the road ahead in their mind before then throwing themselves at it as fast as they feel they can. This is going to use the spacial awareness part of the brain much more than circuit racers. Stages are also a lot longer than racing circuits or sprint stages too. I watched some Rally Portugal last night and they had a 50km stage, and modern routes are far shorter than they used to be.

I don't think you can say rallying is easier than circuit racing because your on your own on track. It comes with its own challenges and different problems. When were talking about the brain functions that men excel at more than women (spacial awareness and risk aversion) I would say rallying is going to be harder for a woman to be competitive at than circuit racing. Given the differences we know to exist between men and women, I'd say it makes Michele Moutons achievements incredibly impressive.

And if you want to see real sexism in motor sport, go and read Walter Rohls comments about almost being beaten by a woman

Vix · 24 Apr 2013 at 14:43

I'd never looked at it that way, but yeah i see the point!!

Actually a form of Motorsport that does have a lot of girls competing in it is drag racing. Very little thought in that, as long as you get the start right!!

Skeeter · 24 Apr 2013 at 14:48

Yeah there are quite a few.

(gonna brave the Female Racing Drivers thread on ClioSport to see if I can grab some names. Its a rather 'risky' thread to browse at work

)

Edit: Ashley, Brittany and Courtney Force are all Drag Racers, and daughters of John Force who is a multiple NHRA Champion. Drag racing is more of a family thing though so you can see how they would end up driving.

And seeing as I have the DeltaWing in my sig, I should mention that Katherine Legge will be driving the DeltaWing at Laguna Seca in the ALMS (and potentially other rounds too).

Sliver · 24 Apr 2013 at 15:09

I served my time in the R.A.F. as an Aircraft Technician. I got to meet some women pilots during my years.

Here's an article which not only show's women performing in combat (much more demanding than any F1 race) but also demonstrates how women can have exceptional spatial awareness skills. Remember, fighter pilots have 3 dimensions to think about not just 2 like in F1

.

Not just anybody can make it as a fighter pilot. You need to be fitter and more robust than a Formula 1 driver to be able to deal with extreme g-forces. You need to cope with doing several things at once. You need to have fast responses. Plus the secret ingredient - natural aptitude.
To mere civilians, fast jet pilots are the stuff of movies - glamorised by Tom Cruise in Eighties movie Top Gun.

So when pictures emerged this week of Flight Lieutenant Helen Seymour exiting her Typhoon jet with a smile - having just landed in Italy after patrolling the no-fly zone in Libya - there was a flutter of excitement.

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/top-girls--the-women-patrolling-the-sky-for-the-raf-6385146.html

The point I'm trying to make is that although men are better at spatial awareness generally, there will always be women who buck the trend and out perform men.

I understand your pessimism Vix when you said this :

I still think though that even though we might see a female F1 or BTCC driver in the future, we wont ever see a female champion. There's just too much against us both physically and mentally.

But I'm confident you will be proved wrong eventually.

Vix · 24 Apr 2013 at 15:24

You are totally right when you say there are people that will buck the trend. Every trend has its deviants

I hope I am proved wrong with the female champion thing. I doubt it, but I will be well pleased if it ever happens.

I say I have no spatial awareness, but I am a female auto test champion and beat lots of men in it too!! It's mainly down to the fact I am precise, and dont try to handbrake turn at every opportunity!!