Stirling Moss Bigotry

Vix · 22 Apr 2013 at 19:56

This is something very close to my heart, being a female involved in Motorsport. Even at my level, there is a huge amount of sexism and I've nearly walloped a photographer with my helmet for making some comment about my husband letting me drive his car...

I think we are getting close to seeing a female F1 driver in the future. Ginetta Juniors had a serious amount of female interest, comparatively, a few years ago, and Alice Powell ventured into single seater-dom with Formula Renault. Like all good drivers, the trick is to have the ones and backing to start them early, and make sure they are noticed. Being female probably helps get noticed! But there is still discrimination going on with these girls, patronising commentators etc...

The thing is, and I get shouted down on this a lot of the time, there are a number of factors that make women less able to drive like men. Competitiveness, bravery, spatial awareness are all part of the 'hunter' profile, which traditionally is the male role. In my series there have been women who have beaten men, and it's these rarer women that will be given a chance. (not those exact ones, but the type).

The other issue is, as girls reach puberty, their priorities change a lot more than boys. Again, it's pre programmed but something that we could eventually change.

Those of you mentioning female- only racing, it's been done. 'Formula Woman', probably the most well known example. Most race series will have a women's championship as well as an overall one, but not a men only championship

.

Ive always had a really big interest in cars, and when I was little played with cars and dolls interchangeably. If only my parents had been rich enough to start me on the road to Motorsport....

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 10:25

Thanks for your post Vix. It's nice to get a female perspective from someone who actually knows what they are talking about as opposed to some of the stupid comments posted in this thread by ignorant men.

Stirling Moss's assertion that women can't function as well as men when under pressure and their life is on the line, just falls flat on it's face once you realise that women fight on the front line alongside men in many countries and it doesn't take a genius to realise that combat is a tad more stressful than F1.

We all know that men and women differ in many ways and as such can not be classed strictly as equal. However, they should be given equal rights and opportunities where possible and F1 is certainly one of those instances.

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 10:55

But that's the thing, most of the time its not equal. Women get given opportunities because they are women, not because they out perform men on an equal playing field.

But, at the end of the day, is that any different to someone getting a drive because they have a rich dad, or the president of their country is funding the team, or because it gets them a cheap engine deal? The playing field is not level, people use everything they can to get a leg up. Being a woman is just one way of getting an edge.

Sexism is a very one directional thing. Is it not sexist against all the male drivers if a woman gets a seat because she is a woman?

Janesy B · 23 Apr 2013 at 11:10

The playing field isn't even for Men, the best F1 driver we will never see is probably not going to get past Formula Ford/Renault or any other single seated feeder series because of money or social standing.

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 11:15

Exactly. Is saying that a woman got a drive just because she is a woman sexist, or just realistic? Its no different to saying Maldonado got his drive because of his government, or that Ma Qing Ha got his drive because he is Chinese. The 'woman' card is a tool that gives them an edge, just the same as having a big cheque book or some key names on your list of friends, the only difference is that they also bring the sexism card with them to use whenever someone points that out.

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 11:55

This is what matters to me in this discussion ....

Sliver said:
We all know that men and women differ in many ways and as such can not be classed strictly as equal. However, they should be given equal rights and opportunities where possible and F1 is certainly one of those instances.

If you guys want to argue against equality for women, then maybe that's a topic for another thread. We all know the world is not a fair place. This shouldn't stop us from striving to make it fairer though.

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 12:03

Nobody is arguing against equality for women?

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 12:19

Skeeter said:
Nobody is arguing against equality for women?

Good. It's just that when I read this...

Skeeter said:
The 'woman' card is a tool that gives them an edge

... I thought the implications were that women were using their gender in order to further their career which is a sexist generalisation if that is how you meant it. Clearly some women use their gender in this way but it's certainly not true for most women.

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 12:22

I think you problem lies with your understanding of what is sexist, and to whom.

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 12:30

Skeeter, I have no problem with defining sexism. Seems like you are a little hazy on the subject though. :confused:

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 12:40

A team choosing a woman driver over an equally skilled male driver because they think she presents some good PR opportunities is not sexist to women.

A woman using her gender to get good PR opportunities or to stand out is not sexist to women.

Thinking women can use their gender to their advantage to further their motor sport career is not sexist to women.

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 12:55

Moses said:
Equality of opportunity

Eg. when it comes to this, let women try to be racing drivers... but, if they're not good enough, don't manipulate the situation to make them one.

Yes I would agree with that.

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 12:57

Moses said:
Equality of opportunity... not equality of outcome.

Eg. when it comes to this, let women try to be racing drivers... but, if they're not good enough, don't manipulate the situation to make them one.

Exactly. You then get into the realms of positive discrimination.

Nobody is stopping women drivers trying to compete with male drivers. And the point I make is that being a woman can actually be an advantage in the motor sports world, rather than a disadvantage. Just like having rich parents or a lot of backing from your home nation can be. Yet I've now been accused of sexism for making that point :confused:

.

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 13:04

LoL Skeeter. I never accused you of sexism. I was just pointing out that some comments made by men in innocence can be sexist from a woman's perspective. When you said this ....

Skeeter said:
The 'woman' card is a tool that gives them an edge

I replied with ...

It's just that when I read this... I thought the implications were that women were using their gender in order to further their career which is a sexist generalisation if that is how you meant it. Clearly some women use their gender in this way but it's certainly not true for most women.

I was just looking for clarification on the context of your words.

Forums are notoriously difficult places to get points across sometimes.

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 13:12

It was not a sexist generalisation regardless of what I meant.

Being a woman is just like being Chinese, being from a rich family, or being backed by Mercedes. It can give you an edge when trying to get places in racing teams.

People don't like that some drivers buy their way into teams because of backing from their countries, but that doesn't make them racist? Other people don't like it that drivers get spots because they are backed by large corporations, but that doesn't make them anti-capitalist? It only seems to be when women get spots due to being a woman that the sexist arguments seem to start.

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 13:19

Skeeter said:
It was not a sexist generalisation regardless of what I meant.

Now you ARE being sexist. So it's ok to lump ALL women under the one banner of using their gender to further their career ? Shame on you.

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 14:15

Why are you so desperate to try to invent sexism? Are you that desperate to save them, can women not stand up for themselves?

It wasn't a sexist generalisation because it wasn't a generalisation. Being a woman is just one of many factors that can help people progress in motor sport. You just keep trying to twist peoples words into something they aren't to feed your own ego as this character of "savour of women".

Sliver · 23 Apr 2013 at 15:15

Now you've wondered off into ga ga land Skeeter. lol

I hope Vix comes back to this topic as I'd like to hear her view.

Skeeter · 23 Apr 2013 at 16:11

Sexist and crazy. I'm collecting the badges today :rolleyes:

This whole thread has been you on an anti-sexism rampage, regardless of whether there is actually any sexism to rampage against.

Bottom line, in my view, being a woman is actually an advantage when it comes to getting into F1 these days. No where near as much as having money (which is a far bigger issue that needs tackling) but its definitely not a hindrance. After all, we don't have any other 4 page threads talking about any other teams 3rd drivers, do we?

JRS · 23 Apr 2013 at 17:04

Skeeter said:
Why are you so desperate to try to invent sexism? Are you that desperate to save them, can women not stand up for themselves?

I think this is what irritates me about this nonsense the most. Newsflash Sliver - women in motorsport don't need white knights charging in on horseback to defend them against comments that you perceive to be sexist.

I hope we do see a woman on the F1 grid in the future, simply because I don't see why Giovanna Amati struggling with a recalcitrant Brabham should be the final word for female F1 drivers. But I also hope that when it happens, she's not been parachuted in over more deserving (read: faster) drivers simply because she's a woman.

Or rich.

Or both.