stupid question?

Evening guys

Looking very encouraging, nicnac/Bigwayne - it's come a long way this thread from your initial post.

I echo the above, regarding case, cables and replacing fans - good advice. The only thing i would do differently is buy a 3.5" to 5.25" Drive Bay Mount for the HDD and move it into the 5.25 drive bay (just below the DVD if possible) - this would, hopefully, give you a clear run of cool air. It's very congested around that area and the airflow may benefit with the HDD being removed away from the 3.5" bay area, altogether.
 
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Is that 378x9 or 425x8?

If the 378x9 as posted abve then yup nudge up the juice! :)

Your set-up looks half decent and I'm suprised your cooler is letting the chip get so hot. I think you could do with a little cable tidy session to help maximise your case airflow! :p

it was 378x9... will up the vcore some more :D

yeah, you'd think there's good airflow but as setter says the fans could be upgraded... the standard case fans are pretty poor at shifting air!
 
Morning :)
Upped the Vcore 2 more notches and temps reached 90C
stopped it before it got any higher... is 90 OK? 10 more degrees and it would shut down
I will move the cables tonight but i'm not sure it's going to make a huge difference... perhaps better fans is the way forward...
 
stopped it before it got any higher... is 90 OK? 10 more degrees and it would shut down

Pretty toasty even for a 65nm - i would delay further testing until BigWayne appears. (But as he's already mentioned they're resiliant chips)

Morning :)
I will move the cables tonight but i'm not sure it's going to make a huge difference... perhaps better fans is the way forward...

Better fans coupled with better case circulation will always help an OC's cause and is definitely worth considering, especially if you’re not changing your case.

Is the side panel capable of having a 120mm fan fitted? (I can't tell from the pic.)

Below is a pic of ‘3.5" to 5.25" Drive Bay Mount’ for mounting the 3.5” HDD to a 5.25 bay. – they’re only a couple of pounds off auction sites and it may help.(OcUK don’t sell them).

bracket.jpg
 
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Thanks for the info plec :)
is it worth spending £30 on fans or £50 on the antec 300? (which may need extra fans anyway) I'm also concerned about noise... starting to get quite loud in there!
I know my icute case is pretty budget, might it be worth resetting the heatsink?
will look into those drive bay mounts... will definitely help clear a path :)
 
Thanks for the info plec :)
is it worth spending £30 on fans or £50 on the antec 300? (which may need extra fans anyway) I'm also concerned about noise... starting to get quite loud in there!

For the clock you're trying to achieve i would be looking at a new case plus fans (quiet ones) - but i would buy it knowing that it was a long term investment and that it would house at least 2 other builds. This makes the case very cost effective - and helps justify spending the money ;)

If you can afford it buy the case - and if money is tight use some of your existing fans mixed with some budget (if necessary) quiet fans. If you buy quality 120mm fans noise will not be an issue - they will certainly be quieter than your 80mm side panel fan.

Just checking out the Antec case…
 
Here you go nicnac...

Below is an edited spec of the Antec 300 highlighting the cooling:

- 1 rear 120 x 25 mm TriCool™ Fan with 3-speed switch control.
- 1 top special 140 x 25 mm TriCool™ Fan with 3-speed switch control
- 2 front (optional) 120 mm fans to cool the hard drives
- 1 side (Optional) 120 x 25 mm Fan to cool graphic cards
- Washable air filters reduces dust build up in your system
- Perforated front bezel for maximum air intake

The case is £45 and comes with a 1 x 120mm rear fan and a 140mm top fan.

You have the option of adding 3 more additional 120mm fans – 2 at the front and 1 on the side panel.

If money is tight I would utilise the 120mm that’s already in your present case and buy 1 other, (silent) 120mm, with the intention of upgrading the other fans in the future if required.

This would be a total outlay of ~£55 plus p&p (you have another 3 months or an extra 100 posts until free p&p) – which, for a new case and fan, is certainly worth the extra £25 when compared to just adding new fans in an already cramped case.

It's a good value, well designed case and should reduce your internal temps significantly when compared to your present case.
 
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Thanks plec... sounds like the best plan... will order that :)
what do you reckon for the 2x 120mm fans? are there any particularly good ones worth investing in?
 
As you've decided on getting a new, better designed case for airflow (the PSU will sit at the bottom) the high speed fans with large CFM may not be as necessary – especially if you’re going to buy/add all the optional fans.

If I had a case that had a total of 4 x 120mm and 1 x 140mm I would be focusing more on quiet with one eye on their CFM capabilities – as it’s no use having a ninja machine if you can’t abide the noise to keep it cool.

Setter’s fan choice would have been ideal in you present rig as it shifts a lot of air but they are noisy at full speed (although you could drop them down to 6v/1200rpm and they would be silent) – however, noise will all be relative to your present rig and is subjective, so advising on fan noise has its fundamental draw backs…

I personally like the Akasa AK-FN057 Apache Super Silent 120mm Fan – link - they shift a respectable amount of air for the money and CFM to dB ratio is very good. I would look to replace the other case fans at a later date, if required, as they will almost certainly be noisy at top speed (although, they do have 3 speed settings.).

If BigWayne feels that you need more powerful fans – then the Sharkoon Silent Eagle 2000 120mm Fan - link – which, setter, recommended for your present case would be a good option and as already mentioned they can be adjusted via volts or fan controller – but hopefully you’ll get away with the quieter option.

If you're on a tight budget – then Xilence XPF120R Red Wing 120mm Quiet Fan – link – could be considered. I built a budget spec for friend recently, and they were a pleasant surprise - but not, what i would call, silent.

To recap:

  • Sharkoon Silent Eagle 2000 120mm Fan run at 6v/1200 rpm will run silent and are good value at £9.99. Plus, you have the option of running them at full whack if required and they would shift huge amounts of air - but this would be very noisy: 2000 RPM/36.1 dB(A)/76.4 CFM (bearing in mind my relative/subjective concerns.)
  • Akasa AK-FN057 Apache Super Silent 120mm Fan - £13.98, very quiet at stock speeds of 6.9 -16.05 dB(A)/57.53 CFM/1300 RPM
  • Xilence XPF120R Red Wing 120mm Quiet Fan - a compromise but very cheap for 68CFM/1400RPM/21.2 dBA .

Again, i would wait for BigWayne's input as he may have his own opinion on this - but hopefully, with that many fans - the silent option will be viable even with your *imminent* clock.

Additional: It's been a great thread to follow - and it's still flying under the forum radar. I will be hassling BigWayne later on to re-consider compiling/apending its contents for a definitive OCing thread all on it's own as, i feel, it would be a missed oppurtunity if this thread's contents were to disappear. ;)
 
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Upped the Vcore 2 more notches and temps reached 90C
stopped it before it got any higher... is 90 OK? 10 more degrees and it would shut down
Hi nicnac1,

90°C is hot . . . . very hot! :p

For testing purposes that's fine but for normal day to day use you don't want your chip burning away like that for long. We were just trying to see if the chip became stable with the increase voltage but the temps are doing us no favours!

Most folk that are really into their overclocking normally go to great length to keep their chips/&PC as cool as possible because the hardware seems to perform better that way. I don't know the scientific/engineering reasons for this exactly but it's roughly to do with the many electrical pathways and circuits in the chip don't perform as well once they get near boiling point!

No two chips are alike, the silicon reacts to voltage and heat differently. Intel rigorously test the silicon in their labs to see if it performs within certain parameters and based on that testing mark the chip up as a certain product and program it with a suitable [VID].

Some silicon cannot run high frequencies once a certain temp threshold is broken, it may be able to run 3.6GHz while the load temp is kept below 65°C but once this figure is breached the circuits don't perform very well and you get errors.

The rub here of course in your situation is your kinda caught in a pincer movement, it's something I call the Hot Gates, i.e your chip appears to be needing two things that work against each other

  • It can't make the clock if it doesn't have enough vCore
  • It can't make the clock if it runs to hot
While adding more vCore is needed for chip stability the added heat maybe causing instability, it's a pain! :p

Improving your cooling is one way of trouble-shooting this problem, swapping out chips is another (or sending it for testing). Another handy method to work out what is going on is to perform some CPU Voltage Scaling Tests . .

What that means is, starting at default/stock speeds you work out exactly how much vCore a chip needs to run stably at a given frequency. As the Frequency rises you normally find you need to add more juice and over the period of testing a pattern emerges where you find out the sweetspot voltage wise of your chip. You find the lower freqencies respond well to a slight bump in voltage but as the MHz ramp up it starts needing greater and greater doses of voltage to even climb a measly 20MHz. At this point you know you are well-past your chips sweetspot! :)

Although CPU Voltage Scaling testing takes time it is a very useful process, you get to know *exactly* what vCore a chip needs at a given frequency and witness how this voltage effects temps. If you have a Energy-Brick/Power Meter attached you would also get to see how the added vCore effects the power draw from the wall (i.e your PC's running costs ££).

I think it would be a handy process for you to perform and buys us some time while you organise your improved cooling.

What you need to do is reset your BIOS back to default 2.4GHz (9x266) and leave all the Voltages on [Auto] except vCore, you then slowly but surely keep turning vCore down, down, down with a bit of quick testing inbetween until you find the correct voltage. I want to know what is your chips True [VID]. You will find that if your chip doesn't have enough juice it will either fail Prime or your PC will reboot, if that happens just nudge up the vCore one bump and test again.

Once you found out what it needs to run stable at 2.4GHz we can progress quickly to 3.0GHz! :cool:
 
Thanks for your input Plec! :)

I agree with everything you said re cooling, the Antec 300 is a no brainer but the choice of added 120mm fans is always worthy of debate! :D

Those Sharkoon SE 2000's are good fans but as you said they are pretty noisy at full 2,000rpm whack! but settle down below 1,500rpm . . . becoming very quiet at 1,000rpm. The SE 2000's are ideally connected to a fan controller. I went for the Sharkoon SE 1000's as they are quiet out the box and shift a good amount of air, I have two fitted to the front of my Antec 300.

I think those Xilence Redwings look good also, well priced etc but I didn't personally test them myself so not sure if their noisy, what the airflow is like etc . . .they do look cool though! :cool:

I'm not sure why nicnac1's processor is getting so hot? I thought the Tuniq Tower was a Premium aircooler? . . maybe it is and the chip is just demonic! :p
 
One other thing nicnac1,

can you download and become familiar with this piece of diagnostic software:

OCCT 3.1.0


It provides some very useful features and tests, in particular it can produce charts showing vCore, Temp, etc over the duration of the tests and its very easy to use.

The default OCCT test is 1 Hour/Medium Data set, I would suggest that initially you change the duration to 30mins, also make sure in the options page that it's configured correctly for all the different voltages and temps that are useful, should be fine out the box but have a nose anyway.

Below is two of the graphs that OCCT produces, its showing the vCore & Core #2 temps of an Intel® Pentium® Dual Core E6300 (45nm) that is overclocked from 2.8GHz to 3.8GHz. The test starts with the CPU idle and then after a few minutes gets loaded up to max for 25mins until the remaining 5 minutes where it idles

Look at the vCore throughout the 30min and see how its perfectly flat while the chip is loaded, having a smooth/steady flow of voltage to the chip is key as if it drops too much the chip will error/crash. I would hope your results looked similar but I suspect the vCore will be wild like a rollercoaster! :p

2009090916h20vcore.png


And below is a graph showing Core #2 temps throughout, never exceeding 45°C full load . . .

2009090916h20cpu2.png


Hopefully you find OCCT handy, it provides some useful feedback and makes the testing process a little more interesting! :cool:
 
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I can agree with bigwayne and plecs points about the sharkoon se 2000's, definitely pretty loud at full pelt, i ran 5 of them of a controller to tame them a bit, the xilence red wings are also pretty good, i have two of theese in my second akasa eclipse case, nice and quiet yet shift a good amount of air.
 
Hey... using the OCCT program now... temps so far haven't passed 75C. (although the desk fan is out and the windows are open) :D Will post the results when the 30mins is up...

currently running the vcore at 1.47v under load @ 378x9 so far no crashing :)

will definitely be ordering the 300 tonight/tomorrow... just need to decide on the fans... the akasa apache seems to have good reviews... (they're the only one's i've looked into so far)
 
The Antec 300 needs two decent 120mm fans adding to the front to really shine, both the front 120mm fans are filtered so it traps any dust from coming into your system and makes cleaning easy! :)

I think the sweetspot for 120mm fans pricing wise is approx £5.00 - £8.00, as you can see there is a lot of 120mm fans costing more, much more with the Noctua NF-P12 coming in at £17.24 a pop! :eek:

I've not used one of these uBer expensive fans because I can't justify the expense when the lower priced models seem to do the job well. I'm sure the Noctua's and Akasa AK-FN057 Apache are great fans but for £14.00 each they had better be godly heh! :p

Having said that you can always consider the added expense an investment because you will get plenty of milage from them and they should last a few years!

Judging what is on offer at OcUK I would imagine the Xilence XPF120R Red Wing 120mm Quiet Fan seem a pretty safe bet @ £6.89 each, two of them for the Antec 300 intakes work out cheaper than a single Akasa AK-FN057 Apache.

You could make a new thread to discuss what 120mm fan is suitable for you, it could go one for days and could get quite violent, millions could die in the conflict, overclockers get very heated discussing small things like 120mm fans and TIM material! :D


 
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thanks for the advice. Have flicked through a few reviews/forums and the xilence red wings have generally good reviews but don't seem to push as much air as some competetors which i suppose is the priority. The Noctua obviously has great reviews but i'm not made of money lol!

I have actually found the apache quite a bit cheaper somewhere else so i may look into that...

just getting the results of the OCCT test and will post in a minute.
 
hmmmm.... not quite the flat line vcore you got lol!

temps are lower than with prime95 (i assume that's because it doesn't torch the system to the same extent)!
 
Just another bit of info about vCore and stability tests . . .

Any success I've had personally in overclocking comes down to me watching things with hawk-eyes, while this generally is considered to be OTT/anally-retentive I always say the Devil Is In the Details! :p

I've been playing around with a little E6300 chip and performing pretty much the same process as what you are doing with your Q6600. I've been using Prime95 and IBT for main subsystem stability testing but have had mixed results. Prime95 has been able to run for 12-24 hours without errors but some other diagnostics have failed on occassion. Of course there are a heap of variables to why this happens but my system is so locked down that I'm normally aware of the slightest change . . .

What I've found is that different tests/diagnostics put different loads on the system, some are quite lightweight, others are Mike Tyson Heavyweight! The thing I found interesting is that depending on the system load the vCore can change without your permission. Prime95 may be able to run for 12 hours straight but OCCT may crash? . . . .what's going on?

To demonstrate my point have a butchers at the super large graph below, its a set of four results from OCCT, the hardware and BIOS settings are identical in the seperate tests, the only *Variable* was to select Medium-Data-Set for two of the tests and Large-Data-Set for the other two, run in this order

  • 30 Min Test Large-Data-Set
  • 30 Min Test Medium-Data-Set
  • 30 Min Test Large-Data-Set
  • 30 Min Test Medium-Data-Set



Do you see the tiny fluctuation in vCore when the test is using a Large-Data-Set? . . . In this instance not enough to cause an error but its the sort of thing that can cause instability/error/crash/bluescreen etc!

The solution to that problem would either be not performing any strenuous tasks with the PC (rubbish!) or just notch up the voltage the slightest amount so that if a tiny fluctuation occurs . . . at the very lowest point there would still be enough juice to keep things running smooth!

The reason I am telling you this is that it highlights how the smallest variable can cause a potential problem, it also shows why some Diagnostics can run for days at a time and others find error within 30mins. We are using Diagnostics at this early stage of clocking but I encourage you to get plenty of Real World Testing mixed in as well, gaming, encoding, extreme pr0n etc, basically throwing a mixed bag of tests against your rig and hopefully make the testing process a little less tedious! :cool:
 
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