Summer Transfer Window 2017/18 - Rumours & Signings

[BaZ87]

.....Hell, Liverpools need is so dire that we've had to play Kevin Stewart (another midfielder) as a centre back in the 2nd half against Wigan today

Jesus Christ. It was a pre-season game. We're going to sign a CB (and LB) and I wouldn't rule out VvD being that CB but don't expect our defensive record to suddenly improve 10 fold. Our defensive issues are as much (probably more) to do with how the team is set up to play than it is the quality of our defenders. It's far easier to defend when you've got a compact back 4 with your full backs tucked in, a midfielder or two sat in front of them and your wingers spending most of their time in your own half. We don't play like that though. It's not by accident that we started last season with Milner at LB, Henderson (a box to box midfielder) as our holding midfielder and Lallana & Wijnaldum as our box to box players. We sacrifice our defensive solidity at the back to make us stronger in other areas - dominating possession, winning the ball back and being stronger defensively higher up the pitch.

The way we play isn't going to change but hopefully if we can sign players like Keita, who can offer the creativity in midfield as well as the defensive work & VvD, who's better equipped to defend in isolated one on one situations, we'll be a bit better off.

And on the subject of Keita, it's being reported in the Echo tonight that we're likely to up our offer for him to £65m. Talk coming out of Germany is that their sporting director is against selling him but the board and manager don't want to keep an unhappy player and are more willing to sell.

 

[BaZ87]

I frankly dont give 2 ***** if it was a preseason game, everyone on the planet knows that our defence is our main issue, it should have been our number 1 transfer priority and so far , regardless of whether the mighty footballing knowledge and insight God of Baz87 says, there hasnt been a signing to strengthen that.

As for its not the players its the way we play, are you saying then that our defensive issues come from the managers playstyle and tactical set up? And are you suggesting that you, an absolute nobody on an internet forum know that but all the worlds footballing experts (who have repeatedly said that the likes of Klavan and Lovren arent good enough and that Liverpool need to buy better defenders) and Klopp himself cannot see that? Maybe you should phone them up and offer them your wisdom?

I am not expecting the defence to suddenly improve overnight, nor am I patheticly naive or lacking in intelligence enough to think that. What I expect, quite damn reasonably imo, is that when its plain to aliens on the planet bigblob that Liverpools biggest issue is defence that something is done as the number 1 priority to address that. Keita is a great player and is an asset and providing that it doesnt hit the pursestrings I am all for signing him, but IF , and neither you or I can know the situation in this regard, IF splashing 60m on him results in us not splashing that sort of funds at a defender , then I dont want him and I would further suggest that we've got the priorities in the wrong order.

In an ideal world we will sign Keita and a new CB (preferably Dijk) and a new LB , and I hope that proves to be the case. Not because I expect us to then immediately win every game 5-0 and win the league by Christmas but because it strengthens our weakest area by getting better players in those positions. All we can do is sit and cross our fingers and hope that it all happens.

EDIT : My apologies for the brusqueness of this post, woke up on the wrong side of bed and for some reason got immediately triggered by the Jesus Christ beginning. On a positive note it does show the passion which I feel for the hope of improvement and toward the club though

You don't need to apologise for calling me a god, it's only the truth

And for clarity, I didn't say our defence doesn't need improving, I was just putting things into perspective. We've seen with Lovren, you can look an excellent defender at Southampton but that doesn't mean it will be the same story at Liverpool. We play a completely different way and the demands on our CB's are far greater - we're always going to be more fragile at the back than most teams because we leave our defence far more exposed than they do. Obviously we want the best defenders possible for our style of play but it's clear that Klopp doesn't see our defence as just our back 4 but the 11 as a whole and given how we play, our midfield and attacking players play as big a part in our record at the back as the back 4 do. You only have to watch any press conference when Klopp's been asked about our defence and he always takes the question further and asks why our defence was left in that situation - it's clear that he believes in defending from the front, keeping or winning the ball back before our defence has to do anything. A signing like Keita (if it happens) is as much a defensive signing as it is to improve our midfield or attacking play - he's the exact type of player that will be defending high up the pitch and winning the ball back before teams get in our half or at our back 4.

Now despite all that, we're going to sign a CB and I can't for the life of me understand why if we bid for another player it automatically becomes a situation where bidding for x means we aren't or can't sign a CB. Ignoring Solanke, our first target was VvD so it's obvious that Klopp recognises that we need a CB and that was his priority. There's been a few speed bumps on that road though and things have dragged on but that's not a reason for us ignoring all our other signings until that's done. I personally think there's a decent chance that we'll still sign VvD but if we don't that's not necessarily because we've spent £60m on Keita (if we do). Seeing as VvD was our first major target it's far more likely that if we don't sign him that the opposite was true - Southampton simply wouldn't sell and other CB targets are cheaper so we have more money in the pot to spend elsewhere.

 

[BaZ87]

I think thats what I find so frustrating about the VVD saga. If he was our top main target, our priority, why did we get into the situation we did. Why didnt we simply pick up the phone 1 minute after the window opened and say Hello Southampton, have 50m for VVD. I find it all so vexing. I get similar feelings about Keita, if we want him (and by all accounts we REALLY want him) , lets just pick the phone up and say Hello RBL, have 70m for Keita. I always get the feeling that we dither from trying to save a few million and things just get dragged out or missed altogether. Theres reasonable chance that if VVD and Keita are our top 2 targets we could have simply made those 2 phone calls 5 mins into the transfer window and those 2 players could now be training and gelling with the team in preseason.

Because it's not as simple as that. If reports are true, neither Southampton or Red Bull have set a price for either player - they're answer has simply been "not for sale". That's not to say they mean that but by putting out that message they have nothing to lose - they know we desperately want the players and they can still come back to the negotiating table later in the window and get their £50-£70m so why accept that now when by holding out they might be able to get £5m, £10m or £15m more? We could offer £70m for VvD today and Southampton might be very happy to accept that but why accept that today unless they believe Liverpool might go elsewhere if they don't? By dragging it out they might be able to get an extra few quid and worst case they can go back, knowing we still want VvD and accept our offer.

 

[BaZ87]

Maybe its just us then, other teams seem to be very capable of just whacking a wodge of cash down quickly and buying someone

Other teams being? City are the only side that have really made a decent start to the window in terms of getting the players they want in. Have Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal or even Utd made any more progress than we have in terms of signing the players they want to this summer? Chelsea wanted Lukaku, Utd wanted Morata but neither got their man. Utd seemingly want Matic or Dier but as yet haven't got either yet. Unless you offer an obscene amount of money then you're not going to get your own way and be able to sign a player on the first day of the window unless the selling club desperately needs the money for their own transfers. How long the deal takes will rest as much on the selling club as the buying club.

Put yourself in Southampton or Red Bull's position, you receive an offer for £60m for VvD/Keita on the 1st July and you might be happy to sell at that price, why would you accept it there and then? Neither side needs the money, they know we want that player desperately. What do they have to lose by stalling or initially refusing to sell? Obviously there's a chance that we might walk and look elsewhere but they know that's unlikely. Worst case they come back to the negotiating table a few weeks later and accept.

When Palace made their first decent offer for Benteke last summer we had so many people on here questioning why Liverpool rejected it but as I said at the time, why would they accept it when they might be able to get a few more £m out of Palace?

 

[BaZ87]

I would tend to disagree. I would say that Man Utd are the team that have done the most so far. Arsenal have potentially done quite well with Lacazette. City have brought in a load of bang average players so far. Certainly none that I think will actually make them a noticeably better side. United have still got a couple more signings to make but so far I think we have done the best business.

I wasn't commenting on the quality of the signings as that's subjective. Whatever we think of the signings, City have gone out and signed 3 of their first choice targets. If what Mourinho says it true about Morata (which doesn't come as a surprise), Utd have only signed 1 of their first choice targets (the cb) and like Liverpool and other sides, are in a drawn out process of trying to sign the likes of Perisic and Dier/Matic.

 

[BaZ87]

If he was first choice, with your connection to Raiola that deal would have been far more straight forward imo. You seemingly switched to Lukaku after you couldn't agree a deal with Real.

 

[BaZ87]

Not sure why thats relevant given that he has now proved he can score 20+ goals consistantly for the last 5 years , and he is still only 24

(only one of three people that have done that in the same time frame)

Am I missing something? Have you included pre-season games and internationals in this? Quickly checking wiki, he's managed 20+ goals for the last 3 seasons.

 

[BaZ87]

Ok, well he hasn't scored 20+ for the last 5 seasons. He scored 17 and 16 in his two seasons on loan prior to signing for Everton on a permanent deal.

 

[BaZ87]

He said 20 goals in the PL. Lukaku's managed it once.

 

[BaZ87]

Been wondering about this today, if we get Keita, how do you think the midfield will line up, will Can get a game? What about Milner, Henderson, Lallana or Wijnaldum even. I'm going to assume that generally speaking we will have Firmino, Coutinho and Mane up front, maybe with Salah or Solanke/Woodburn swapping in from time to time. But if we do play with a front 3 in effect, that leaves 3 to go into Keita, Can, Henderson, Milner, Lallana and Wijnaldum. Someones got to drop their role a fair bit, maybe Can, Wijnaldum or Milner?

I guess what Im wondering is what will be our main front 6 out of Firmino, Salah, Coutinho, Mane, Lallana, Keita, Henderson, Milner, Can and Wijnaldum (im assuming Solanke and Woodburn will be bit part players for this season)

I think Milner played 45 minutes in midfield last season and with Moreno likely to leave, I think it's safe to say he's going to carry on being seen as a option at fullback more than in midfield.

The key thing is all those players you've mentioned are flexible in terms of where they can play - Henderson, Can & Keita can all play as the deepest midfielder in a 3, they can play the box to box roles in a 3 or they can play in a 2 man central midfield. Similarly, Lallana, Wijnaldum and Coutinho can play in midfield in a 4-3-3 but equally can play in the wider attacking roles or in a number 10 role. Their flexibility also provides flexibility in terms of the different systems we can play too - we can play the 4-3-3 we played last season with Coutinho narrow on the left, we can play it with 2 out and out wide players, we can play a 4-2-3-1 or a diamond in midfield.

Answering your general question, obviously there's going to be injuries, suspensions and times when certain players will be rested so there isn't likely to be many occasions where all those players are available but that said I suspect that one way or another, Coutinho, Keita (assuming he signs), Firmino and Mane will find their way into our first 11 more often than not or at least will be first choice in the biggest games. The exact roles that Coutinho and Keita will play and who take up the other 2 positions I guess will be a bit horses for courses. For example, away to City Coutinho probably plays on the left of a 4-3-3 with Keita being in a box to box role in midfield with maybe Henderson and Can making up the other 2 roles to make us a bit more solid. At home to a lesser side Coutinho might find himself in midfield, Keita in the deepest midfield role and Lallana makes up the midfield 3 and Salah or Sturridge make up the front 3.

 

[BaZ87]

I think Sturridge is in a unique position. In ideal circumstances you'd look to sell him and replace him with somebody as good that stays fit but that's not going to happen. Because of his injury problems selling him at all is going to be a challenge and any fee you might get won't be nearly enough to replace him with somebody half as good. I think we have to look at Sturridge as a bonus player - you don't plan for him but if he's available then great.

With that in mind he's not going to be first choice but imo it would be foolish to ignore him completely. If we're chasing a game or struggling to break down a packed defence and he's available, I'm bringing him on before Origi, Solanke or Woodburn. If by some miracle he can put the last few seasons behind him and get back to playing semi regularly again then suddenly he becomes a serious option again because for all his injury problems you can't ignore his ability.

On Woodburn and Solanke - I suspect we won't see a huge amount of either in the League or CL. Woodburn only broke through last season because of the lack of depth we had and with that hopefully being resolved I think we'll see him taking a step back and being allowed to develop a little slower. Obviously if he or Solanke grab their chances with both hands then great but I think it'll be cup games and the odd cameo for them next season.

 

[BaZ87]

Assuming Sturridge doesn't leave, I can see Ings leaving on loan. As you say, after 2 seasons out it's difficult to see how he'll get a chance with us now.

 

[BaZ87]

Didn't comment on it sooner as he's been close to leaving in each of the last half dozen transfer windows only for a last minute u-turn but it appears that Lucas really is leaving this summer. He was left out of our tour to the Far East and has tonight been pictured arriving in Rome wearing a Lazio scarf.

A great servant to the club but possibly one of the unluckiest players to have played for us in my lifetime. He joined us when we had 3 of the best CM's in the world ahead of him and received so much abuse just because he wasn't Alonso, Mascherano or Gerrard and then when he did finally settle and began developing into a top class midfielder himself, he suffered 2 back to back long term injuries that he never really recovered from.

Wish him nothing but the best at Lazio and hope that in a slower league he'll fare better than he has with us over the last few seasons.

 

[BaZ87]

£40m is the new £15m.

This will upset a few people but:

https://tomkinstimes.com/2017/07/sh...t-more-plus-top-100-signings-after-inflation/

Shaun Wright-Phillips cost the equivalent of £105m today!!!!

 

[BaZ87]

66m Keita bid rejected. (Possibly from Liverpool)

If true then short of Keita doing something drastic (not just handing in a transfer request) I can't see the deal happening now. They've not just rejected the offer but completely ruled out the possibility of selling him. We're not going to increase our offer by enough to make them change their stance and having said what they have, they'll look stupid if they backed down over a few extra £m.

 

[BaZ87]

The clause seemingly is true but it ultimately depends on their motivations. If they genuinely want to establish themselves as a major side in Germany and Europe then sometimes you need to make these kind of decisions that cost you in the short term.

 

[BaZ87]

We're heading to the same situation as last season, Klopp will not want to buy just for the sake (which I agree with 100%) and boom, we end up not really buying anyone.

What you've described was January, not last summer. Last summer we were linked with the likes of Gotze and Dahoud but out of the blue we signed Mane and Wijnaldum instead. I'm sure we'll have back-up targets if we can't get our first choice players and I'm certain we'll sign and CB and CM before the window is closed - we need a bigger squad than last season and there's no way we'd be letting Lucas and Stewart (£8m to Hull - incredible deal) if we weren't signing replacements.

 

[BaZ87]

They're all full of ****. Anybody can use a bit of common sense and make out they've got inside info by just twisting what's being reported in the press - turns out true and you're a genius, turns out wrong and "x had a change of heart", "x made a bigger offer" and so on and son on. What's frightening is that no matter how often these guys are proven wrong, they still have 1000's of morons hanging on their every word.

You would think that given that Stewart went to hull for 8m and the price for Robertson is 8m, we might as well just do a straight swap. Got to be easier that way surely.

I'm not sure deals are ever that straight forward and I'm not sure how possible it is (for accounting reasons) to officially swap players. In this case the deals aren't quite the same either - Stewart is reportedly £5.5m rising to £8m and Robertson is reportedly £8m rising to £10m.

Baz I would love your optimistic look for our transfers really would, I get there is time left but we just seem to making a meal out of it as per usual.

I think I said previously, look back to last summer. Everybody lost their **** when the rumoured interest in Gotze didn't materialise and we ended up going for another Southampton player - things didn't work out too bad in the end did they? And I'm not sure I'm being overly optimistic either. I'm sure we'll make signings, how they'll work out only time will tell but again as I've said previously, I'm as confident in the club regarding transfers now than I've been in a very long time. There's a clear strategy in place and for the first time in 10 years everybody seems to be working together.

 

[BaZ87]

Not all agents are like that. Raiola and co give them a bad name.

They're nearly all the same. Any agent that has an in demand player will leverage that fact to make as much money for himself and his client. In regards to Tombstone's point, I can't see in this case the agents getting paid much if anything at all, above their typical commission they receive from their client - there just isn't the demand for either player for the agent to get paid that extra cash.

 

[BaZ87]

Surely City aren't spending over £75m on right backs? Guardiola being Guardiola it's possible he has plans for one of them to play somewhere other than RB or after a couple of training sessions he's realised Walker is ****.