Supplements the debate/discussion thread

BennyC · 2 Sep 2009 at 13:29

If I could afford to purchase enough food to cover the nutrients of what I'm getting from my supplements then I would.

Currently I use a standard whey and a slow release whey with caesin, flax seeds/oil and a few other ingredients. I also take BCAA's and fish oils for obvious reasons. (Is there any difference between BCAA's and EAA's?)

I found the fish oils to help my joints greatly especially in my shoulders.

The whey and BCAA's are deffinatly helping but I would much rather get this from real food if I could afford to.

One thing I detest is under-educated peoples opinions on whey protein. Who believe that any gains regardless of how impressive your physique is, is due to whey/shakes. They see you look good, well proportioned and healthy and immediatley ask if you're taking shakes. I feel that it kind of dis-credits your hard work. It's down to dedication and determination ultimatley, sure they help but you need to be working balls to the wall with a good diet (as with any supplement) to utilise its full potential.

Initially when I first began to enjoy working out and wanted to gain mass/strength I wanted to do it based on a natural diet, by this I mean without using supplements as I for some reason saw it as a shortcut/cheating probaly because I was myself uneducated in regards to them. It later became apparent that I wouldn't have so much free time as I do now to train (University) and was probaly hindering myself from reaching my goals. With a student shopping budget I couldn't quite give my body what it needed to grow effectively. I spoke to the right people and did my research on what was available and what I should expect which really shouldn't be a lot. But I'm reassured by using supplements that my body is getting what it needs to grow and isn't falling short and that my workouts & efforts aren't wasted.

Ultimatley I agree. But just wanted to drop my two cents.

Freefaller · 2 Sep 2009 at 13:50

That's what this thread is about - drop your cents mate

Jeffstar · 2 Sep 2009 at 14:03

Organic food does not contain any more nutrients than conventionally grown products. This has been proven.

Some people just want to believe in science fiction rather than science fact.

BennyC · 2 Sep 2009 at 14:19

Got a few more to drop.

Trying to keep this on the topic of supplements as opposed to farming...

If I take a step back I have promoted the use of supplements to aid training. But have always evaluated the individuals diet first. As undeniably(sp) this, as we all know, is the most essential aspect to make gains/improve whether you're bodybuilding, compete in atheletic activities or generally want to be and feel healthier.

Based on this they are obviously not essential or necesary as Freefaller is a testament to using minimal supplementation and high quality food. However whey protein for example is a cheaper alternative. High protein, low carb and low fat often with added amino acids AND reasonably low calories for easily less than £1 for 60grams of protein. This I think is probaly the reason the majority of people choose to use them. Although not everybody realises the potential gains to be made from some proper food.

OT: Might be worth while having a sperate thread for the discussion of farming in relation to the quality of food?

Freefaller · 2 Sep 2009 at 14:53

Jeffstar said:
Organic food does not contain any more nutrients than conventionally grown products. This has been proven.

Some people just want to believe in science fiction rather than science fact.

Fact or not, I use my own taste buds to tell me what I like - whilst I agree it's hard to tell the difference in a supermarket supplied stock, however the difference in quality of meat from a butcher vs a packaged slice of meat in a supermarket is HUGELY different for me in terms of taste.

We've become a lazy race - accepting 2nd best, and taxing those who can afford it buy putting a premium on higher quality goods.

Please tell me, that if you had the choice for the same price, or even for free, of having eggs from a thousand caged chickens eating and wlaking on their own **** everyday, vs one from your backgarden in a nice environment that you wouldn't choose the one from your garden?! If not, then you're bonkers!

Just like fish caught on a line and eaten within hours tastes SO much better than packaged and chilled fish.

Maybe farming or "organic" foods don't affect the nutritonal content, but I know that when living in other countries my body composition, the food enjoyment, and the feeling I get from the diet I have in those places blows all this mass produced crap out of the window. To me that's more than enough evidence to me that mass produced = crap and locally produced = good.

I don't give a **** about "scientific" studies as they don't mean **** as they skew the results to say exactly what they want to say. So you can throw as much garbage in terms of "fact" to me, but I simply know how/what food stuffs are good for me. I don't need science to prove things to me, I rely on how I feel and how I am

Benny,

I use minimal supps, but do use them as you do, to try and alleviate prohibitive costs. AS much as I'd love to buy high quality foods all the time, I can't always afford it - but it's hard when you're a food snob like me

I think using certain subs can work in synergie with your body and your diet - if you do it right. Spending several hundreds of pounds a month on food whilst I love the food, does hurt a little as I like my toys and holidays too!

Oh and incidently I find that EEAs tend to be more useful as a sup as whey tends to contain enough BCAA profiles typically. However owing to the cost and sheer horrid taste I haven't used EEAs for a while now - when taken with food and pre/post workout it does help with recovery and protein absorbption - and just completes the amino profile of the whey you take. Though I don't feel the need for them anymore, my diet has improved since I used to take them and whilst they would help the cost isn't justifiable to me.

I think if I lived somewhere where fresh fish was more readily available (i.e. the Med) I'd probably drop the fish oils. I've never seen the point in vitamin supps as I get more than enough in my diet. Adaptogens (i.e. herbal based supps) have been used by all sorts of doctors, monks and so on for millenia and the fact that they do exactly what the (wait for it!) SCIENTIFIC STUDIES :eek:

also state, I see no reason not to take them - and furthermore they are just herbal remedies which again work in synergie with your body and diet. If you cycle 'em they're really effective.

oli collett · 2 Sep 2009 at 14:54

Benny06 said:
One thing I detest is under-educated peoples opinions on whey protein. Who believe that any gains regardless of how impressive your physique is, is due to whey/shakes. They see you look good, well proportioned and healthy and immediatley ask if you're taking shakes. I feel that it kind of dis-credits your hard work. It's down to dedication and determination ultimatley, sure they help but you need to be working balls to the wall with a good diet (as with any supplement) to utilise its full potential.

Indeed - the lay person doesn't usually understand the point of em though and thinks of them as some kind of instant-muscle add. I think the reason most people consume whey is the sheer convenience - you can take a shake in to work to have between meals but it's not always convenient to prepare some chicken or tuna the night before.

Benny06 said:
OT: Might be worth while having a sperate thread for the discussion of farming in relation to the quality of food?

We had a lengthy debate on this a few weeks back in general discussion under the headline of "more bbc proaganda" here, which got off to a poor start in the first place with one of the most stupid thread titles known to man, and finished with maths that defied logic. It's an amusing read though!

Edit - my last word on this bit which is scientific studies:

Freefaller said:
I don't give a **** about "scientific" studies as they don't mean **** as they skew the results to say exactly what they want to say. So you can throw as much garbage in terms of "fact" to me, but I simply know how/what food stuffs are good for me. I don't need science to prove things to me, I rely on how I feel and how I am

The great thing about science is that it is open to critique. Studies are peer-reviewed when going into journals and then discussion is made afterwards. People spend their lives going through papers picking holes through them so that we can get a better understanding of the subject matter and realise what we can and can't conclude from research. The FSA study in particular is available to download for anyone and you can quite happily go through all the figures and stats (I haven't, others have, and I trust them in that they are sound). If the results have been skewed, it will be clear to see when looking at the detail. The Soil Association for one have failed to find a single decent hole in it - the only thing they picked up upon was the definition of stastical significance because they failed to understand confidence intervals.

So to dismiss studies as not meaning **** (especially without seeming to bother reading them or at least a summary) - I find that quite bizzare. If we ignored studies and more importantly meta-analysis (es? i don't know the plural) we wouldn't really get very far. I really must yet again recommend reading bad science - it will help

But on another note - with regards to fish, as I also pointed out, you hit upon the key thing - freshness. Locally produced = less distance to travel = better for environment & likely to be a lot fresher. Locally produced can also mean mass produced though.

As for adaptogens - i'm a bit lost as to where they come into it. But we won't know how useful they are unless they are tested. That means peer-reviewed scientific studies. I'm not sure what the supposed studies say about them, or how they are useful though, perhaps you can point me to them?

Freefaller · 2 Sep 2009 at 15:00

oli collett said:
Indeed - the lay person doesn't usually understand the point of em though and thinks of them as some kind of instant-muscle add. I think the reason most people consume whey is the sheer convenience - you can take a shake in to work to have between meals but it's not always convenient to prepare some chicken or tuna the night before.

Couldn't agree more

We all try and prepare meals etc... but sometimes life gets in the way... as much as I'd love to have everything ready all the time, as much as I love the gym and eating well, you sometimes have to accept compromise. Whey shakes are a good compromise - pretty healthy too if taken as part of a good diet too.

Jeffstar · 2 Sep 2009 at 15:54

Freefaller said:
Please tell me, that if you had the choice for the same price, or even for free, of having eggs from a thousand caged chickens eating and wlaking on their own **** everyday, vs one from your backgarden in a nice environment that you wouldn't choose the one from your garden?

None, i buy duck eggs.

Excellent posts btw oli collett

Freefaller · 2 Sep 2009 at 16:07

Oh dear.... thanks for answering my question by completely ignoring the question. :/ I was giving an example.

BennyC · 2 Sep 2009 at 16:14

Yeah I think I remember reading some of that thread.

Though like you say I think it got a bit derailed owing to some of the tools that lurk in GD.

The joys of debate

BennyC · 2 Sep 2009 at 16:20

Perhaps the debate about organic/free range & caged chickens/eggs could be translated to human beings.

Lets go back however long to the days of slavery.

You have the choice of 10 slaves which have been kept in crampt conditions, no exercise, low light, poorly fed and generally not good for much.

You also have the choice of 5 slaves which owing to a very generous master have slept in comfy beds, eaten well and had plenty of exercise and are quite healthy.

You have a job that needs doing, which do you choose?

I'm not suggesting that you need to eat twice as many caged eggs to get as much from free ranges ones. What I'm trying to imply is that the healthier well treated slaves will get the job done better.

Just like eating high quality food would, would get the job (repairing muscles etc) better.

I didn't really think this post was entirely necesary, but I like my example!

I am also not emplying we should eat one another!

Freefaller · 2 Sep 2009 at 16:24

Sod it, I'm going to eat only supplements for the rest of my life, and never touch real food again!

Heck it's all processed and no one has died from it - it'll be fiiiiiiiine.

BennyC · 2 Sep 2009 at 18:38

Freefaller said:
Sod it, I'm going to eat only supplements for the rest of my life, and never touch real food again! Heck it's all processed and no one has died from it - it'll be fiiiiiiiine.

Not if I eat them all first! Om nom nom nom!

Jeffstar · 2 Sep 2009 at 18:54

Freefaller said:
Oh dear.... thanks for answering my question by completely ignoring the question. :/ I was giving an example.

Sorry, i was just having a bit of fun, which seemed appropriate at the time after you just stated you didn't give a **** about facts. Its like putting your fingers in your ears and whistling

The links that oli has kindly provided are are worth reading mate.

LiE · 2 Sep 2009 at 19:18

I take about 4 scoops of whey a day, but I don't see it as a supplement, just another food stuff. I plan my diet and the macros provided by a scoop of whey is quite handy in boosting up protein without having prepare more meat than I already do.

Freefaller · 2 Sep 2009 at 19:57

Jeffstar said:
Sorry, i was just having a bit of fun, which seemed appropriate at the time after you just stated you didn't give a **** about facts. Its like putting your fingers in your ears and whistling

The links that oli has kindly provided are are worth reading mate.

I've read them, they are interesting, but they don't prove anything to me.

I guess it's each to their own. I wasn't trying to prove him or anyone else wrong, I was just stating my preference and how I feel. Maybe it's psychological maybe it's fact - there's just not enough evidence for me to believe that the food I get in the Med and other countries is just as good as the food we get from mass manufactured here.

I admit, that for cost reasons we have no choice otherwise foods would become prohibitive in terms of cost. However, surely that means that growing things cheaply and in mass produced manner is inferior no? Flavour for me is the most important thing.

Anyway we're straying off the subject of supplements - though I'm happy we have some "experts" here who have sparked a debate, that's what a forum is about, but I don't do debates, I'm too stubborn, I have my point of view and I never change it.

I've read more than enough literature from leading experts in all sorts of fields to make me believe them just as much as I'd believe what oli and others are saying - but I've read both sides of them and I stand on the side of the fence that I stand on because that's what I believe.

I don't have to prove my point of view to anyone, but I can quite happily say I disagree with other people's opinions without stating my own - it's just the way I am. Irrational, Mediterranean, stubborn and as strong as an ox (read that as stubborn as a mule)

Jeffstar · 2 Sep 2009 at 20:11

FF while on the subject of abroad, don't you find everything seems better? Food tastes better, women look more attractive, the list goes on. I never suffer hangovers either for some strange reason!

Freefaller · 2 Sep 2009 at 20:28

Aha! The enigma that is being away from *home*. You see I don't see the UK as "home" so to speak as I've lived a little everywhere growing up. So it's strange...

I think a your mind has a lot to do with it. I reckon it's a psychological trick, I think your happy hormones (dopamine seratonin etc...) tend to be higher, your cortisol levels lower, and hjence your sense of well being tends to be higher and as such are able to appreciate more? I don't know. It's interesting. I think mood has a lot to do with it as well. Possibly a break from normality too?

The thing is when living in the Med a few years back, I, like you, had an incredible sense of well being. I think in general the food IS better, ergo your body struggles less, the wine is good, the beer is lighter and less gassy, the women are tanned and exotic, the atmosphere is more laid back, and whilst we expect everything done here and now and in big quantities, things happen slower but with more passion and care?

It's a good question - and I think it ties in with the supplement conversation a little, as you're effectively possibly making your body do the supplementation owing your psychological state and perhaps purely owing to the food being better too? I honestly don't know - but it happens ALL The time, and hence can't just be a coincidence surely?

Volcs · 2 Sep 2009 at 21:29

I just find pretty much anything that's not sitting in an office a joy - even when travelling and 20 hours into a 30 hour bus trip I'd always end up thinking "at least I'm not at work". Maybe I need to find myself a new line of work!

Jeffstar · 2 Sep 2009 at 21:32

Agreed FF, well summarised there.

Definitely the best health tonic you can give yourself is a holiday in the sun surrounded by happy people