Supplements the debate/discussion thread

Man of Honour
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So, the best supplements are:

Sun
Sea
Happy pretty girls/people
Being away from home

Excellent - well I'm off to Cyprus in 2 weeks so that's me sorted, I'll come back like Arnie! :D
 
Man of Honour
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Benny, here's some stuff I've found about BCAAs and EAAs:

cant make my mind up wheter to buy 500g of eaa's or bcaa's which do you rate more?

"-BCAAs do not increase protein synthesis above basal levels, but they do decrease protein breakdown. They are very benificial while cutting and even may increase fat loss then. BCAAs seem to be the perfect supplement to use for people as a "midnight shake". It only gives you a few kcals. (20 kcal. since 5g will probably suffice) so you don't need to be afraid to gain fat mass compared to a midnight protein shake.

-**EAAs do increase protein synthesis above basal levels. This is what you want to use pre/post workout to increase muscle growth.

WHY BCAA'S FOR RECOVERY:
A) bcaas prevent protein breakdown, but do not increase protein synthesis.
B) Helps in fat loss while cutting.
C) Prevents a decrease in glutamine
D) Prevents muscle damage.

1)It is known that BCAA oxidation is promoted by exercise
2)Promotion of fatty acid oxidation upregulates the BCAA catabolism
3) 77 mg BCAAs/kg supplementation before exercise results in a large decrease in release of EAA, (531 +/- 70 mumol/kg) for BCAA vs. (924 +/- 148 mumol/kg) for control.
4) A cutting diet high in BCAAs increases body weight loss and % of fat loss more than a calorie restricted high protein cutting diet alone.
5)No toxic effects of BCAAs were observed at a dose of 2.5 g /kg for 3 mo or 1.25 g /kg for 1 y. There are no reports concerning BCAA toxicity in relation to exercise and sports at these levels.

***BCAAs prevent protein breakdown, but do not increase protein synthesis.

-Since 1978 a variety of studies have been performed in humans where BCAAs or leucine alone was administrated in varying amounts and durations. An anabolic effect of leucine and the branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) on reduction of muscle protein breakdown was found in these studies, with no measured effect upon muscle protein synthesis. In addition, no untoward effects have been reported in any of these studies from infusion of the BCAAs at upward 3 times basal flux or 6 times normal dietary intake during the fed portion of the day.

-BCAA infusion in 10 post absorptive normal subjects causes a 4-fold rise in arterial BCAA levels. Plasma insulin levels were unchanged from basal levels. Whole-body phenylalanine flux, an index of proteolysis, was significantly suppressed by BCAA infusion. Despite the rise in whole-body non-oxidative leucine disposal, and in forearm leucine uptake and disposal, forearm phenylalanine disposal, an index of muscle protein synthesis, was not stimulated by infusion of branched-chain amino acids

-BCAAs during 1h cycle exercise and a 2h recovery period does not influence the rate of exchange of the aromatic AAs during exercise. In the recovery period, a faster decrease in the muscle concentration of aromatic AAs was found (46% compared with 25% in the placebo condition). There was also a tendency to a smaller release (an average of 32%) of these amino acids from the legs. The results suggest that BCAA have a protein-sparing effect during the recovery after exercise

-7.5-12 g BCAAs during intense exercise (a 30 km cross-country race and a full marathon) increases BCAA plasma and muscle concentration. In the placebo group plasma BCAA decreased and left muscle levels unchanged. The placebo group showed a 20-40% increase in the muscle concentration of aromatic AAs. BCAA supplementation prevented this increase in aromatic AAs in both muscle and plasma. These results suggest that an intake of BCAAs during exercise can prevent or decrease the net rate of protein degradation caused by heavy exercise

-77 mg BCAAs/kg supplementation before exercise resulted in a doubling (P < 0.05) of the arterial BCAA levels before exercise (339 +/- 15 vs. 822 +/- 86 microM). During the 60 min of exercise, the total release of BCAA was 68 +/- 93 vs. 816 +/- 198 mumol/kg (P < 0.05) for the BCAA and control trials, respectively. Furthermore, the increased intramuscular and arterial BCAA levels before and during exercise result in (???? thanks for finishing dude)

-BCAA supplementation (76% leucine) in combination with moderate energy restriction has been shown to induce significant and preferential losses of visceral adipose tissue and to allow maintenance of a high level of performance.

-In adipocytes from fed rats, the rate of fatty acid synthesis in the presence of glucose and insulin was inhibited 40% by valine (5 mm)

-Twenty-five competitive wrestlers restricted their caloric intake (28 kcal/kg per day) for 19 days. A high-BCAA diet provided 4 kg of weight loss, and 17.3% decrease in fat loss. There was no change in aerobic (VO2max) (p > 0.75) and anaerobic capacities (Wingate test) (p > 0.81), and in muscular strength (p > 0.82).

Prevents a decrease in glutamine
-Following an exercise bout, a decrease in plasma glutamine concentration can be observed, which is completely abolished by BCAA supplementation.

-BCAA supplementation during a triathlon completely prevents the decrease in plasma glutamine.......

Prevents muscle damage
-We hypothesized that BCAA supplementation would reduce the serum activities of intramuscular enzymes associated with muscle damage. 120 minutes exercise on a cycle ergometer significantly increases serum creatine kinase (CK) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) up to 5d post-exercise.....

-12 g BCAAs for 14d in 16 men (the exercise on day 7) significantly reduces this change in LDH and CK .

WHY ESSENTIAL AMINO ACIDS (EAAs) FOR RECOVERY:
A) EAAs increase protein synthesis above basal levels
B) Prevents muscle soreness

1) Nonessential amino acids are not necessary for stimulation of net muscle protein balance (6 g EAAs provides double the response of 3g EAA and 3g of nonessentail AA)
2) 40g EAAs does not increase net protein balance more than 20g EAAs
3) Ingestion of oral essential amino acids results in a change from net muscle protein degradation to net muscle protein synthesis after heavy resistance exercise in humans similar to that seen when the amino acids were infused.

EAAs increase protein synthesis above basal levels in depth.
-EAAs (essential amino acids) increases net muscle protein balance. 2x a day 6 g provides double the response of 2x a day 3 g.....

-Consumption of 40g EAAs after heavy resistance training results in a change from net protein degradation (-50 +/- 23 nmol. min) to net protein synthesis (29 +/- 14 nmol. min).......

-A 0.15g/kg/hr AA infusion for 3 hours in 6 normal men increases muscle protein synthesis by 141%. After exerecise this increase is 291%. Muscle protein breakdown was not significantly affected.....

-Consumption of 6g EAA + 35g sucrose immediately before exercise elevates response of net muscle protein synthesis more than consumption following exercise. Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater during PRE (209 /42 mg) than during POST (81/ 19mg).

-6g EAA'S consumed at 1 and 2 hours after resistance exercise increases protein synthesis (total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg) (71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3hr). Prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later

Eaa's Prevent muscle soreness in depth.
-3.6 g AA's before and after exercise + 2 doses a day for 4 days after the exercise suppresses the rise in serum creatine kinase activity. This also diminished muscle soreness.
 
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Thanks for that FF:)

Interesting read. Not quite sure I can make sense of all of it!

What I understand from that is that BCAA's decrease protein breakdown.

By this is it meant protein already within the muscles (catabolism) as opposed to slowing protein synthesis?

And EAA's help to raise protein synthesis above regular levels.

Correct me if wrong.

This leads me to my following question.

Is taking both recommendable. If so it would be something I would consider.

While we're on the topic of BCAA's and EAA's, I currently take my BCAA's pre and post workout or just over the course of the day on off days (as suggested on the label). I remember reading another member on here takes them first thing in the morning? Which would be preferable?

Would the most benefit come from taking EAA's before meals/shakes?
 
Man of Honour
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Absolutely, in order of rank

1. Both
2. EAAs
3. BCAAs

Pre / during / post training is apparently the best way of doing it - though taking eaas first thing in the morning to create an amino acid spike before breakfast can have a beneficial effect.

It's been over a year since I've taken EAA and BCAAs so my current knowledge is a bit flakey.
 

dun

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How much EEAs are we talking in an egg? I'm sure I read ages ago that if you eat a few eggs (I have over 6 whole eggs a day) that there isn't much point to supplementing it.
 
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Absolutely, in order of rank

1. Both
2. EAAs
3. BCAAs

Pre / during / post training is apparently the best way of doing it - though taking eaas first thing in the morning to create an amino acid spike before breakfast can have a beneficial effect.

It's been over a year since I've taken EAA and BCAAs so my current knowledge is a bit flakey.

I read that they are best taken with food, preferably carbs? Or does it not really matter as long as you're ingesting something else with them?

Out of curiosity when in the day did you take them if you can remember?

How much EEAs are we talking in an egg? I'm sure I read ages ago that if you eat a few eggs (I have over 6 whole eggs a day) that there isn't much point to supplementing it.

Hmm interesting. I have 3 a day and as of late the standard of them looks pritty poor whilst being at home. God knows what my mother has been buying but they look and taste cheap.
 
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I only eat about 12 eggs a week, I don't like having them every day as I like to have a bit of a variation in my diet. :)

I beg your pardon, of course taking them after some carbs is sensible, and post work out you'll be eating soon after anyway so it should all tie in nicely. If you take them DURING training, obviously other than a banana there's not much food going in ;)

As for how much i took 15g pre work out with a banana and a cup of coffee to give me a kick (plus to get rid of the taste!), and 15g after workout with some glutamine/whey shake/waxy maize.

Apparently optimal results for mass when training at high intensity are tkaing it 4-6 times a day (15g) between solid meals. I never went that route as I couldn't afford it and didn't really have the ability to do that.
 
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I only eat about 12 eggs a week, I don't like having them every day as I like to have a bit of a variation in my diet. :)

I beg your pardon, of course taking them after some carbs is sensible, and post work out you'll be eating soon after anyway so it should all tie in nicely. If you take them DURING training, obviously other than a banana there's not much food going in ;)

As for how much i took 15g pre work out with a banana and a cup of coffee to give me a kick (plus to get rid of the taste!), and 15g after workout with some glutamine/whey shake/waxy maize.

Apparently optimal results for mass when training at high intensity are tkaing it 4-6 times a day (15g) between solid meals. I never went that route as I couldn't afford it and didn't really have the ability to do that.

Thanks.

Seeing as EAA's have almost the same amount as what's in BCAA's with a tight budget I might switch. However I currently get 100 days worth of BCAA's for £25, where taking 30grams of EAA's a day will last me little over a month and costs £10 more. £8ish a month for BCAA's or £35 a month for EAA's.

Could try it for a month if I can find the cash.
 
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I'm with Benny on this.

I've finished my placement and I'm entering my final year of University. I won't be taking up a part time job this year, which means I have to be more sensible with my money. I'll be living comfortably but I have to spend within reason.

I have always stood firm with sticking to good food and I'll continue to do so. The only supplements I take is whey and fish oil capsules. Both which I buy in bulk and work out as pennies per serve.

A 30g protein shakes works out at approx 20 pence . . 20 pence! In addition to being extremely convenient and easy - you can begin to understand sometimes we haven't got time to have 5-6 cooked meals everyday. I intend to do something I've never done before this year at Uni . . take a packed lunch (oh the suspense!) :eek:

One thing I detest is under-educated peoples opinions on whey protein. Who believe that any gains regardless of how impressive your physique is, is due to whey/shakes. They see you look good, well proportioned and healthy and immediatley ask if you're taking shakes. I feel that it kind of dis-credits your hard work. It's down to dedication and determination ultimatley, sure they help but you need to be working balls to the wall with a good diet (as with any supplement) to utilise its full potential.

This one really grinds my gears. They somehow think it's magical :(
 
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oli collett has done a pretty good job of summarising my views on this subject, even referencing the same studies and meta analyses as i would have. I just find the methodology behind a lot of the studies supporting the supplementation to be a little questionable.

What i also believe however is that supplements in a real life situation can have a positive effect on peoples health, largely due to the placebo effect. so in double blinded, randomised clinical trials then nope. in the gym then yes though i'm pretty dubious as to a lot of the claims made having a basis in fact.
 

PAz

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Great read FF.

I remember the guy in the Sports Nutrition shop in Dunstable saying to me that his favourite customers are the kids who come in and buy protein powder and weight gainer for a few months, turn up at his gym once or twice and then get ****ed off with him because the products haven't worked.

Theres serious money in supplementation and people waste hundreds of pounds a year on it when they are training and eating like idiots. I've done it - I spent over a year working really hard with the olympic wrestling coach, got up to 125kg bench, 200kg deadlift, 100kg power clean and I was only taking one protein shake per day if that (he was against all forms of supplementation and said in the three olympic games he was training wrestlers not one of his team were using supplementation). Then I went to uni, got ****ed a couple of times a week, trained probably a maximum of twice a week and ate crap all day while downing protein non stop. Put on loads of fat, all my lifts dropped and I had to start all over again. Then I did it again LOL! Well, not to the same extent, I didn't get fat the second time around.

Now I've not been in the gym less than twice per week in the last year [and looking at my logs thats only about 3-4 weeks, every other week has been at least 3], training really hard, dieting well and have smashed all my PB's and am very happy with my progress until the knee set back. But thats not going to stop me.

As a side note, I never rated Creatine until I tried Gaspari SizeOn - you sip it during your workouts (I had it during the strongman meet). Good energy and focus. For the four weeks I used it my van pulling times were increasing every session and my deadlift, bench and split jerk all went up. It also really bought the veins in my arms out and people were commenting that I looked leaner. Didn't take any measurements so I can't say whether it actualy put Size On or not.

Could it be placebo? I've tried creatine products before and never got anything from them. I only tried this as I got it discounted through someone at the gym and I'm glad I did. Nice product though too expensive at full price.
 
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This one really grinds my gears. They somehow think it's magical :(

A lad I know on the rugby team asked me about cyclone (maximuscle) said he prefered it over the Phd equivelant Synergy.

Said synergy did nothing for him. I just nodded as you do when somebodies talking nonsense but can't be bothered to correct them.

The fact he's playing rugby (good, burning calories), eating lots...of the wrong foods, takeaways etc, out everynight drinking and not training anywhere near hard enough or properly will be why nothing is working for him.

He's reasonably stocky anyway. However I don't think you should expect anything from supplements. Don't spend what you can't afford to throw away and never expect anything to work. I'll be pleased if supplements help just a few extra % to improve my gains.

When I see people picking up the tubs on the POS stands at the gym, even children or people that spend more time doing cardio than lifting. It makes my blood boil that staff will promote it when people are just pouring their money away.

Usually most people expect results within days and stop bothering when it doesn't work so save themselves hundreds of pounds.

Where I'm currently temping the guy I sit next to is a novice lifter but is having shakes and creatine daily, even weeks on end where he wasn't training. Even when he was it was no where near hard enough. He was still taking them whilst preparing for a 10KM(hats off to him for doing it) but seems like wasted supplements as I'm sure his diet was more than adequate to refuel his body.

The majority of people just aren't clued up enough.

OT: well kind of on topic. A friend of mine (who's brothers a doctor, not that it really matters) is convinced that whey protein is bad for your kidneys unless your drinking plenty of water? I found this difficult to believe...
 
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Ultimately the gym is 70% diet, 29% effort and that extra 1% you can get from some supps (which do work, but are so tiny in terms of efficiency that it seems daft at times). So for 1% is it really worth it?

I still stand by taking a shake after a work out to last me till dinner time - just because I really really don't feel like eating after a workout - but that's just for me... it's a handy way of getting some nurtition into your body. It's no different to being put on a drip in hospital, sure it's not enjoyable as a meal, but it'll provide you with what you need.

Amino acids (found in protein) are the building blocks of the way the nutrients are utilised in your body - and in general we get them in our diets, and as discussed EAAs cannot be synthesized by your body so you need to make sure you get enough of them in your protein intakes during the day (meats, fish, pulses, beans, nuts, eggs etc....).

If you cannot hit your dietary requirements supps can help get you to where you want and i think it's perfectly valid to do it via supps, ultimately they are just food, broken down into building blocks rather than surrounded by flesh and fibrous tissue.

However if you do get your diet sorted and are able to eat well then unless you think that 1% performance gain is worth it then you're wasting you money.

Stims, well I don't use them, but I've found beta alanine to be great for focus, but then again a cup of coffee before a workout does the trick too - though coffee is bad for your alkalinity.

No supps "work"... they don't provide you with instant results. However, if used correctly with the right ratio of carbs and protein they can enhance your body's ability to exploit your diet and exercise - but I'd suggest it would be for those really a) who are doing this full time and to a high standard b) have a ridiculously strict and tailored diet c) are beyond our realms of professionalism!

The facts of the matter is that as stated in the last paragraph they do provide beneficial properties - that's just categoric fact and science - however, my point is that for the average Joe (myself included) it might help a little, but not enough to warrant the cost IMO.
 
Soldato
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I mentioned above about switching from BCAA's to EAA's.

Currently for £25 I get 100 days(4 per day) worth of BCAA's tablets: These contain:

10mg Vitimin C
1.7mg Riboflavin
1.5mg B6 Vitamin
1100mg L-leucine
550mg L-Isoleucine
550mg L-Valine

I've spotted these on myprotein:

http://www.myprotein.co.uk/capsules-tablets-softgels/sports-supplements/eaa-plus/

These work out a fair bit dearer, £46 for 540 tablets and contain for those that can't be bothered to read the link:


Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
L-Leucine 1g (1,000mg) *
L-Valine 444mg *
L-Lysine 444mg *
L-Phenylalanine 378mg *
L-Threonine 312mg *
L-Isoleucine 177mg *
L-Histidine 144mg *
L-Methionine 99mg *
Vitamin B6 600mcg

A serving of these is 3 tablets.
I would probaly take 2 before WO and 2 after. It says to take 3/5 upto 3 times a day but that would be too expensive. Buying these would last (when 2 lots of 270 are brought) about 135 days.

The only thing that seems considerably lower is L-Isoleucine.
It looks to me like I would basically be getting what I am from BCAA's already with the EAA's from MyProtein. Works out about £8 a month for the BCAA's at the moment, so its not a lot more expensive and i'd be getting some EAA's too.

Now I'm not a scientist so have no idea what half of those things are, obviously amino acids, but I have no idea which ones are the most important.

I already have L-glutamine and BCAA's as part of my Whey protein from Phd:

L-Glutamine 150mg & Branched Chain amino acids 200mg per scoop. Not a lot but better than nothing.

Considering trying them for a bit to promote a bit more synthesis as opposed to stopping breakdown. Thoughts?
 
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was looking at the exact same thing as Benny. Heard big things about BCAA's and EAA's, but simply looking at Freefaller's "doasage" seriously makes me wonder if there's gonna be any effect on a tiny dosage as 4 caps/day... :(
 
Soldato
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was looking at the exact same thing as Benny. Heard big things about BCAA's and EAA's, but simply looking at Freefaller's "doasage" seriously makes me wonder if there's gonna be any effect on a tiny dosage as 4 caps/day... :(

Well I was taking 4 BCAA's a day anyway, as recommended. So will still be getting the same amount, but also getting EAA's too, for about an extra £2 a month.

So even if it's not a great deal or a big dosage more it's still more than I was getting. Best to make the most of the food you're eating I suppose! coupled with some ZMA and the whey protein I think it'd be a nice little 'cocktail'.
 
Man of Honour
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I like Rhodiola Rosea and Ginseng (though SIberian Gingseng is also good, otherwise known as ES I think), and Holy Basil.

I tend to cycle them for 6 weeks or so at a time. Then have a 4 week break etc... It may just be placebo, but I certainly believe in chinese medicine, and herbal remedies over "medicine" per se, and what the heck, it's natural and really seems to do the trick for me. :)
 
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