Supplements the debate/discussion thread

Has anyone tried using a topical fat burner? I'm curious about products based on Yohimbine such as lipoderm. So far I havent found any study or much anecdotal evidence (such as forum posters claiming it to be effective) to suggest that these things work. However, on the face of it there does seem to be some science behind it, insofar that Yohimbine has an effect with the Alpha-2 adrenergic receptor which among other things seems to have a role to play in lipoylsis. (Source Wikipedia)

I'm guessing because it doesnt really feature highly in weight lifting circles that it isnt all its cracked up to be?
 
Just wanted to update from my post a few pages back regarding getting spots when taking whey protein. Even if no-ones interested :p
I have been taking MP's unflavoured whey (which obviously has no added crap in it) and have found I do not get any spots at all. I can only put this down to what Benny said previously about the additives, sweeteners etc. in a lot of the protein powders.
Just for info. I was using Dymatize Elite before.
 
Here's a question for everyone, do Americans seem more 'Supp friendly' to you guys?

I spend a lot of time on http://forum.bodybuilding.com/ as I find it a great motivator when I really cba to leave the house. Anyway, particularly in the Losing Fat section there is a lot of supp discussion, and they all seem to think that some pretty complex stacks are a great aid to weight loss. The EC stack inparticular is hugely popular, but personally I don't fancy trying a homebrew chemistry combination in my body!
Having said that, there's a lot of people on their that swear by thermogenic fat burners and the like.
Honestly, I've been considering them over the last few weeks as I've really plateau'd in fat loss and its starting to demotivate me. I figure, even if it is a bit of a placebo but makes me train harder or eat less then it might be worth giving it a go?

But yeah, a lot of UK forums seem mostly against anything but whey/multi/bcaa/fish oil. The yanks love any old chemical that might help.3

Opinions?
 
Chris1712 said:
Opinions?
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Do not do it.
http://articles.muscletalk.co.uk/article-ephedrine-ephedra.aspx
Have a look at the possible side effects. Frankly you dont need them either, to drop more fat have a look at adjusting your diet/training.

As for yanks being very pro supp's I think its the same on muscletalk really, and although most the guys here aren't anti supplementation as per I find they tend to be more well read overall and can tell you wether something is worth adding in addition to a good diet.

Also to add to thread- I've got some STC nutrition whey protein complex on order, 3x2.25 tubs for £62.50 inc delivery and Ive chosen Strawberry, Toffee, Chocolate hopefully they taste nice :)
 
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I think the main problem is that people just put supps in their diet for the sake of it. The amount of times I hear some say "I have 5 protein shakes a day and im not getting bigger" shows that a lot of people miss interpret supps.

As with anything, building muscle and losing fat becomes much much easier when your well educated. The best supp when it comes down to it all is knowledge IMO.
 
Well said Ben.

The problem is people think that using supps will magically give them more with the same amount of effort. Nutrition is key to training, however, good training and rest is also vital.

You can boost your thermogenic reactions naturally, furthermore doing exercise developing LBM will naturally increase your thermogenic capacity. For example, I'm literally a walking hot water bottle owing to my lifestyle! A lot of "fat burning" stacks are not recommended - they're based on a naughtier version, which basically make your heart beat faster and make you more wired, i.e. more fidgety and basically moving more and as such using more calories. Why do that artificially, just do a bit more in the gym, or go for a morning walk, vary your diet, change your training.

People use supps without really knowing how they bind with different molecules in your body, how they affect you, and jump in feet first without really understanding the science behind it.

Then again maybe I'm different, even aspiring or other painkillers, I don't take those really unless I really can;t cope, and even then I've researched and learnt about how they work with my body. I don't like putting things in my body that I don't understand.

Don't get me wrong, when doing intensive training like AGVT for example, I do supplement to help me recover and give me maybe a slight overdose of some nutrients owing to the punishment my body is receiving. However I dose it myself, I've tested it on my performance - sure it's a bit contradictionary and hypocritical saying that I don't like putting things into my body without knowing what they do, but I make a well educated decision.

Diet and nutrition are key to any training - everybody is different though so you need to work out what your body responds better to, however the diet and nutrition importance doesn't change. :)

Americans love their supps because it's a huge market over there, there are so many there that are jus filled with filler and do nothing, because people will believe it. Susceptability and positive mental attitude will often make you believe that it is "working". Don't get me wrong there are many supps that work, I'm a big fan of natural herbal supps - but taken from time to time and in measured quantities/amounts. The yanks have been brainwashed into thinking they NEED these supps - you don't. Certainly in the sunny states where you get lots of sunshine, fresh fruit and veg you're living in an ideal environment for good health. Just add some fish and good carbs, some decent exercise and you're on your way to a perfect lifestyle.

The Mediterranean lifestyle to me, is still the "perfect" mixture of what is needed for your body. Good fats, fish, 8-10 portions of fruit and veg a day, lean meats, sunshine, exercise, red wine - perfect! There's a lot of evidence (some anecdotal to be fair) that the Med lifestyle is extremely good, and helps lower risks of diabetes, an heart conditons. You don't see them supping themselves up to their eyeballs ;)
 
I love the mediterranean diet FF!

Sadly in Ireland it's rather expensive, plain fish costs up to twice as much as that batter covered crap.

Although Tesco is rather good with their 3 for 10 Euro specials here. So i stock up on lean steak and mine, not to mention a whole chicken. Three whole chickens for a tenner? Bargain to me!

Not to mention I love Olive Oil and fish, when I can get mackerall or other lovely fishies I get them ASAP.

Add brown rice, oats and whole grain brown bread ( rarely ) I'm sorted.

I've not been on any real supps since the end of march, ran out of whey and creatine back then. Ran out of the weight gainer I was trying in April.

Since then my lifts haven't dropped, they've increased.

Whole foods are simply better, but supps can help when used properly :)
 
I have just recently started to take whey protein and creatine. I have noticed a massive difference in my work out mabye it's just a mental part, which I'm sure some of it is. The thing is I've been reading about creatine and I just havn't read the best of things, there is a lot of very negative comments about it and there seems to be some bad side effects, can someone fill me in on creatine as a supplement?

I'm sorry if this has already been posted, I've looked in the thread but have only seen it mentioned not talked about.

Thanks mark
 
What side effects have you read of? Creatine is a naturally occuring chemical found generally in meats and fish (not in veggies, which is why a lot of veggies need to supplement on creatine). It's not an essential amino acid but useful for giving extra capacity to muscle endurance/strength. The effects are minor though, they may give you one or two extra reps once you've loaded a decent amount.

Problem with it is the water retention and the "crash" you get after using it for a few months. i.e. you will lose initial work out strength and endurance as well as size owing to the water retention. Mostly the effect of dimished "strength" will pass within a week or so.

As for the creation of formaldehyde and other such poisonous compounds, you'd have to be taking it in ridiculous quantities for a long period of time.

I personally get very little from creatine - I do get something, but owing to my diet my creatine levels aren't too bad.

IF you're a vegetarian however, you can receive very visible benefits from creatine since their base levels are so low.
 
ben90 said:
I think the main problem is that people just put supps in their diet for the sake of it. The amount of times I hear some say "I have 5 protein shakes a day and im not getting bigger" shows that a lot of people miss interpret supps.

As with anything, building muscle and losing fat becomes much much easier when your well educated. The best supp when it comes down to it all is knowledge IMO.
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Yep, it's in the name. Supplement, not replacement.
 
Freefaller said:
What side effects have you read of? Creatine is a naturally occuring chemical found generally in meats and fish (not in veggies, which is why a lot of veggies need to supplement on creatine). It's not an essential amino acid but useful for giving extra capacity to muscle endurance/strength. The effects are minor though, they may give you one or two extra reps once you've loaded a decent amount.

Problem with it is the water retention and the "crash" you get after using it for a few months. i.e. you will lose initial work out strength and endurance as well as size owing to the water retention. Mostly the effect of dimished "strength" will pass within a week or so.

As for the creation of formaldehyde and other such poisonous compounds, you'd have to be taking it in ridiculous quantities for a long period of time.

I personally get very little from creatine - I do get something, but owing to my diet my creatine levels aren't too bad.

IF you're a vegetarian however, you can receive very visible benefits from creatine since their base levels are so low.
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The only side effect I get from creatine is that if I go over 5grams a day I get an upset stomach :(

I've not noticed much difference without it though, but then again I just increased my amount of food per serving :)
 
Freefaller said:
The effects are minor though, they may give you one or two extra reps once you've loaded a decent amount.

Problem with it is the water retention and the "crash" you get after using it for a few months. i.e. you will lose initial work out strength and endurance as well as size owing to the water retention. Mostly the effect of dimished "strength" will pass within a week or so.
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While I'm not questioning your knowledge about creatine, I do not agree to what you said, simply because some people respond differently to it.

Water retention has been pretty minor for me and that 1-2 extra rep make it worth it imho. Sure it won't be a huge difference, but then again no supplement makes a huge difference anyway.

As for the "crash", I do agree that it won't do much after 4-6 weeks of administering it, however if I stop taking it the extra strength doesn't go away within a week, it just stays there for me.:D

that's why cycling is recommended, not because it's dangerous for you but because in most cases it won't do much after a while.

Getting 5-10grams of creatine daily is rather difficult and expensive to do by normal diet, whereas decent creatine mono is very cheap on its own.
 
I read about it doing kidney damage and that got me a bit worried. I'm not a vegetarian, my diet is very good, it's not perfect but I feel that I eat quite well with a wide variety of foods.
Thank you very much for the fast response, you have put my mind at ease! :)
 
Excessive whey protein puts strain on your kidneys too. Excess of anything really puts strain on your body parts if they are not taken in a synergistic way for your body.

As cristi has said, everyone responds differently, my creatine stores are generally quite high and as such I get little benefit from prolonged use, but the initial water rentention is useful with high volume training initially to mitigate the sudden increase in volume. :)
 
The Craig said:
Do not do it.
http://articles.muscletalk.co.uk/article-ephedrine-ephedra.aspx
Have a look at the possible side effects. Frankly you dont need them either, to drop more fat have a look at adjusting your diet/training.

As for yanks being very pro supp's I think its the same on muscletalk really, and although most the guys here aren't anti supplementation as per I find they tend to be more well read overall and can tell you wether something is worth adding in addition to a good diet.
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Thanks for the post. I'm definitely not considering anything ephedrine/ephedra based as I have read a lot of the nasty stuff it can cause. But are there any thermo based products worth using? I feel my diet is as good as I can currently get it. By that I mean I've already changed a lot, its far from perfect but its as good as I can make it before I just get fed up and don't bother, if that makes sense. I really despise anything to do with preparing or cooking food, I'm one of these people that (if it were possible) would eat a little pill every morning and get all my nutrition from that and really not care.

Even if these things provide a total placebo that makes me subconsciously work harder, that could be good enough. I'm just looking to get back to losing weight to re-invigorate my motivation :(.
 
Nitric Oxide/pump supplements claim to have thermogenic effects.

Caffeine can be good for weight loss but you don't want to over do it and I'm not sure how much you'd want to be dosing at.

At one point I was having around 400mg pre-work out whilst experimenting with dosages. The recommended amount per day is 600mg apparently.

Could be something to look into and isn't something that stands out as *bad* for you, from what I understand anywhooo.

End of the day, weight loss/body fat drops are achieved by correct diet & doing your cardio. Supplements will only help boost achievements slightly, not achieve them entirely.
 
BennyC said:
Nitric Oxide/pump supplements claim to have thermogenic effects.

Caffeine can be good for weight loss but you don't want to over do it and I'm not sure how much you'd want to be dosing at.

At one point I was having around 400mg pre-work out whilst experimenting with dosages. The recommended amount per day is 600mg apparently.

Could be something to look into and isn't something that stands out as *bad* for you, from what I understand anywhooo.

End of the day, weight loss/body fat drops are achieved by correct diet & doing your cardio. Supplements will only help boost achievements slightly, not achieve them entirely.
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:o 400mg of caffeine, that's a lot! I think I might leave it another week or two and see what happens, then start really looking into them. My metabolism has really gone up a notch since I started weight training, but not enough.
 
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