Surreal thing happened to me today...

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Many are saying we shouldn't idly stand by but instead help the police officer enforce an anjust judgement of illegality.

I never said we should attack police officers. The police officer attacked the scooter rider from the sounds of things and started losing from the sounds of things even though the rider was just walking away. I bet the police officer broke their own finger from clinging on like a child.
I still don't see where you are getting the police officer "attacking" the scooter rider. And if they did, how do you attack someone and start losing when this person is just walking away? None of your post makes any sense.

In addition to this, if you could just "walk away" from a police officer trying to apprehend/arrest/question you, wouldn't it kind of defeat the object of having a police force? So the person "just walking away" is part of the problem. What's the officer supposed to do, say "Oh that bloke didn't want to be stopped from doing his illegal thing, I'll just let him carry on"
 
@ttaskmaster

How do you feel about pacifists, btw?

And how do you feel about conscription?

If policing the law is all of our responsibility, and building forward bases in Afghanistan is all of our responsibility, I'd love to hear your views on those two things. Pacifism and conscription.
 
How do you feel about pacifists, btw?
I've known some good ones, and some who were absolute *****.
The Padre I used to go drinking with was one good example, and the infantrymen were also mostly decent.
The ***** were mostly the kind who'd preach various flavours of pacifism all day at you, but would then still be quite violent whenever it suited them. As with many Christians, I find those claiming to be pacifists often aren't when truly put to the test...

And how do you feel about conscription?
Not as good as volunteers, obviously, but in some cases necessary. Does need to be handled with greater care and attention in order to do it right, though.

Not sure why you'd want to know my views on these, but presumably you have something to prove or some sort of agenda, so go ahead...

If policing the law is all of our responsibility, and building forward bases in Afghanistan is all of our responsibility, I'd love to hear your views on those two things. Pacifism and conscription.
If standing by and watching/videoing everything go to **** because we're not designated officers trained to handle it, I'd love to know where you live and where your valuables are kept...
 
I'm just trying to understand your stance.

The whole idea that unless I'm prepared to be/do X, nobody else should be prepared to either. And not "nobody else should have to", because nobody has to be a cop/soldier.

Nope, it's the idea that unless I'm prepared to be a cop/soldier, why should anyone else?

It's hard to get me head around. Does this apply to other professions? Unless I'm prepared to be a plumber, nobody else should be prepared to either. If I'm not prepared to be a taxi driver, nobody else should be prepared to be a taxi driver.

Where is the accounting for the fact that different people are drawn to different walks of life? That the people who want to be cops ad soldiers are given training on how to be those things. They then get eqipped to do those things.

I'm not prepared to do something I never a) chose to do b) trained to do or c) am equipped to do. And this is used as a reason why someone else, who did choose, did train, and is equipped shouldn't be prepared to do the job they signed up for?

Where is the logic in this argument?
 
Police are insured against harm, the public are not.
If it turns out the civilian is innocent, and the copper is the aggressor, and that happens more often than not, then you could be sued for battery and wrongful imprisonment.
Police are trained and weaponized.
You have more chance of being attacked by the police, than the police by us.
Why should the public help the police when the coppers themselves don't give a damn about their own? The PC Palmer incident a little while back, getting murdered while his boss sat in the car watching him get murdered due to a "risk assessment"?

Who gives a toss that some guy was riding an electric scooter? So much for freedom in our country! We have common law, which is basically don't steal or hurt anyone, and then EVERYTHING else is acts and statutes, and that is by consent, unfortunately the police officers today are not taught the difference, they are just revenue collectors for the system, and us public are not taught our rights, most fear the police and give up their details when no law has been broken.

How long will we roll over and let this happen, our rights, our country and our wages are being stolen from us, due to "breaking the law", soon we wont be allowed to breathe because it will be against the law, or they will find a way to charge us for it!
 
I'm just trying to understand your stance.

The whole idea that unless I'm prepared to be/do X, nobody else should be prepared to either.
Maybe consider it from a more general standpoint rather than getting bogged down in specific examples.

It boils down to 'does someone who is unwilling to get involved in the upkeep of society, deserve the efforts of those who do?'.

Personal judgement as to what constitutes a reasonable trade off in social responsibility is where the difference of opinion lies I think. Everyone (well probably not everyone really) contributes to society in their own manner, it's more complex than 'won't help a cop, shouldn't get help from cops' but it makes an easy example for the overall thought process.
 
Maybe consider it from a more general standpoint rather than getting bogged down in specific examples.

It boils down to 'does someone who is unwilling to get involved in the upkeep of society, deserve the efforts of those who do?'.

Personal judgement as to what constitutes a reasonable trade off in social responsibility is where the difference of opinion lies I think.
But on the other hand we do not look favourably on vigilantism, do we. So there is a clearly a division or responsibility. Those who are responsible for upholding the law and those who aren't.
 
I'm just trying to understand your stance.
It's quite simple - If you're not going to join in taking responsibility for your own society, you get no care from it either.

Nope, it's the idea that unless I'm prepared to be a cop/soldier, why should anyone else?
Where did I ever say exactly that?
Maybe you're struggling because I never said it? I did caution you against trying to summarise and interpret what I said...

I'm not prepared to do something I never a) chose to do b) trained to do or c) am equipped to do.
Life doesn't always give you that choice.... But even in such situations, there may be other things you can do to help others.

Why would you not help??!!

Police are insured against harm, the public are not.
So?
There are plenty of things you do in your daily life that you won't actually be insured against... and insurance often won't help in most cases, either.

If it turns out the civilian is innocent, and the copper is the aggressor, and that happens more often than not, then you could be sued for battery and wrongful imprisonment.
Guess I'll be filming your death on my smartphone, too. I'll have dialled 999, of course, but there's nothing I'm insured to do beyond that, you see.... and I need the YouTube hits.

You have more chance of being attacked by the police, than the police by us.
Jesus Christ, where do you people live that the cops attack you on such a regular basis?

So much for freedom in our country!
Err.... whatever made you think you had freedom? This isn't America, you know...

How long will we roll over and let this happen, our rights, our country and our wages are being stolen from us, due to "breaking the law", soon we wont be allowed to breathe because it will be against the law, or they will find a way to charge us for it!
Oh, right, you're troll-ranting. I see.... Sorry, thought you had a point. Do carry on...

But on the other hand we do not look favourably on vigilantism, do we. So there is a clearly a division or responsibility. Those who are responsible for upholding the law and those who aren't.
There are different ways to uphold the law, even as a civilian... particularly as part of society.
And yes, we're often quite unhappy with specific vigilantism (defined as breaking the law to exact justice)... but we're equally happy with those of us who assist the officers in their duties.
Jason mentioned Common Law - I believe there's still actually a Common Law offence of refusing to assist a constable!
 
Police are insured against harm, the public are not.
If it turns out the civilian is innocent, and the copper is the aggressor, and that happens more often than not, then you could be sued for battery and wrongful imprisonment.
Police are trained and weaponized.
You have more chance of being attacked by the police, than the police by us.
Why should the public help the police when the coppers themselves don't give a damn about their own? The PC Palmer incident a little while back, getting murdered while his boss sat in the car watching him get murdered due to a "risk assessment"?

Who gives a toss that some guy was riding an electric scooter? So much for freedom in our country! We have common law, which is basically don't steal or hurt anyone, and then EVERYTHING else is acts and statutes, and that is by consent, unfortunately the police officers today are not taught the difference, they are just revenue collectors for the system, and us public are not taught our rights, most fear the police and give up their details when no law has been broken.

How long will we roll over and let this happen, our rights, our country and our wages are being stolen from us, due to "breaking the law", soon we wont be allowed to breathe because it will be against the law, or they will find a way to charge us for it!
#FOTL
 
@ttaskmaster - No, i'm not trolling.
We don't have many "constables" left, they are replaced with "officers" there is a difference between a policeman / constable, and a police officer unfortunately.
Under common law it is an offence to not assist a constable, only when called upon to do so.

We are all born free, and we do not need the powers that be to tell us what we can and cannot do, if you're happy being ruled over by these people, having your rights eroded away continually, by all means, let it happen, but not everyone wants that, i for one don't.
Apologies that I have a difference of opinion and see the messed up world we live in differently than most.

@Lopéz - Sorry I don't know what FOTL means?
 
Why would you not help??!!
1) I'm more likely to do more harm than good, such as getting in the way
2) It's dangerous and I could be seriously injured
3) I'm not trained in restraining people
4) I'm not physically fit or strong (I have a desk job)
5) The perp might hold a grudge and subsequently target me or my family
6) Should I get injured or worse there will be no support for myself or family to deal with this
7) I'm not equipped to do the job safely (as possible)

And that's entirely ignoring whether I agree or disagree with that specific law (I don't agree half the time).

Now if you want to define "help" as something not limited to wading in swinging, then that's a different story.

But in the context of this thread, help meant to help restrain the scooter rider. With physical force.
 
Freeman on the land

Thank you for clearing that up.

To a post i saw a few pages ago with a girl being being killed from riding an e-scooter, was it due to this 1 incident they were made illegal?
I see people commuting to work on them daily, they don't go very fast, and I doubt they even have much range, they seem pretty safe to me, and its the rider who is in control of their safety and others, the same as cars, lorry's, bicycles etc, if they are in control of the method of transport, then they are in charge of safety.
People who cross the road without looking and get run over, should walking be illegal?

I don't see them as an issue what so ever, just some guy with a big office does.
 
Thank you for clearing that up.

To a post i saw a few pages ago with a girl being being killed from riding an e-scooter, was it due to this 1 incident they were made illegal?
No they weren't 'made illegal', they've been 'illegal' since their creation because they're classed as PLEVs, meaning they're not permitted to use roads without being registered and taxed like a car but nor are they permitted to use pavements because they're powered.

It's simply a case of outdated legislation that needs to be changed to catch up with the world.
 
Who gives a toss that some guy was riding an electric scooter? So much for freedom in our country! We have common law, which is basically don't steal or hurt anyone, and then EVERYTHING else is acts and statutes, and that is by consent, unfortunately the police officers today are not taught the difference

Can you expand on what you mean by this?

AFAIK police officers do get the basics of common law and statute, you seem to be indicating possibly some sort of freeman of the land type misunderstanding here whereby statute doesn't really c count unless you consent to it or something?

@ttaskmaster - No, i'm not trolling.
We don't have many "constables" left, they are replaced with "officers" there is a difference between a policeman / constable, and a police officer unfortunately.
Under common law it is an offence to not assist a constable, only when called upon to do so.

What do you mean by this? Can you give an example of a police officer who is not a constable? (Are you getting them confused with police community support officers?)
 
Can you expand on what you mean by this?
AFAIK police officers do get the basics of common law and statute, you seem to be indicating possibly some sort of freeman of the land type misunderstanding here whereby statute doesn't really c count unless you consent to it or something?

What do you mean by this? Can you give an example of a police officer who is not a constable? (Are you getting them confused with police community support officers?)

I'm happy to be wrong on this, and learn by it, I research into loads of different topics because I want to know the truth. I see many big problems within our world and society, and I'm trying to figure things out, to be free, to not live in fear any more, to find the truth in everything. History always repeats itself and a lot of bad things has happened prior to us being here at this present time, and more bad things will happen in the future, as I said, I just want to find the truth from the world we live in, and find a real meaning to life.

The quote below is The principles which were set out in the ‘General Instructions’ that were issued to every new police officer from 1829.

  1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
  2. To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
  3. To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
  4. To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
  5. To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion; but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour; and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
  6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
  7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
  8. To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
  9. To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

From how I understand this, this represents the bobbys we had roaming our streets, probably before my time, they were apart of the community.
Policemen / policewomen's duty is to uphold the common law, to serve and protect, uphold the common law.
I believe the "general instructions" quoted above is why we believe the police work for us, as public servants.

Police "officers" are corperate employees, they collect revenue, and enforce the acts of parliament.
PCSO's dont hold an oath, i hear they have a warrant card, but not currently valid as they need an oath for it to be valid, they have no power over us.

No one has power over another human being.

Quote below is the policemans/womens oath.

I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will faithfully discharge the duties of the office of constable with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality,and that I will uphold fundamental human rights and accord equal respect to all people, according to law.

An Act is a Bill that has been approved by both the House of Commons and the House of Lords and been given Royal Assent by the Monarch. Taken together, Acts of Parliament make up what is known as Statute Law in the UK.

So we have the basic common law, and then people in the "houses" make up these acts, and you break them, you pay.
Everything in this world is a business, the police stations, the courts, the councils, everything, and their aim is to make money, so we get penalized.

As said, I am willing to be wrong, but I am searching for the truth and a way out from this corruption.
 
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