Tearing down statues

olivier renault said:
How about all those Eastern European countries tearing down statues of Lenin and Stalin in the 90's, Saddam Hussein's monuments to himself, or the 3rd reich being culturally bleached out of existence. Where do you draw the line. When is it OK to do so, and when is it not.
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I think plurality needs to be considered here, in the US and UK whilst there may be statues that the permanently offended are offended by but there is not predominant ideology or celebrity represented. Totalitarian regimes routinely exclude all other culture or individuals than those of the controlling ideology. Ripping those down was/is necessary to allow wider culture it's place.

I have never been to the southern United States but I find it hard to imagine that the heroes and ideology of the Confederacy are so ubiquitous that they exclude all other culture.

But the Year Zero Left as I'm now thinking of them need the Cultural Revolution.
 
Tefal said:
tbh i say move them to a meuseum.

but you're making a bit if a false comparison they where torn down in the high of revolution they had jist thrown off thier oppressors and tore down the satues they had been forced to pay for/build.
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I'm not making a point, really, just trying to clarify, trying to find an objective, rational reason, rather than an emotional, subjective one. I can't quite find one.

And I don't believe it is false comparison either. These are just statues, objectively, sometimes purposefully representing an idea, however crooked from our viewpoint. Although, granted there was a much greater movement towards destroying them than preserving them at the time, aren't we just following mob rule?

I like the museum idea, though. A much better way of keeping the unsightly icons and preserve the history of the painful past, away from the easily offended public eye.

these are people who aren't even alive when the statues were built let alone the people they are of.
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I think that's about as valid an argument as keeping them around. You see the good points, they see the bad points. However, where they go wrong, is that they are beating on a strawman. These statues were not built to represent slavery. You don't see them with their foot on the neck of a black man in chains. THEN, they would have a valid argument.

Basically, stupid people doing stupid things for stupid reasons.
 
When my wife and I married, in a County Court House in Florida, there was just us, and two friends from New York City, who had flown down to act as witnesses.
Our friends took three photos, one in the 'marriage room' with the Clerk of the Court conducting the ceremony, one in the lobby, with us draped in the Stars and Stripes that was hanging there, and one on the Court House lawn, with the statue of a Confederate private soldier in the background.
Friends in Tampa have forwarded a link to the Tampa Tribune newspaper, reporting that "our" statue may be removed to a Confederate cemetery, there, (maybe), goes our link with history.
 
Sounds like a pretty tenuous 'link' to history, why should anyone give a crap that some statue in the background of your wedding photo might get torn down especially if it is among those erected, on the cheap, well after the civil war with the aim of subjugating black people.
 
Is anyone actually genuinely offended by Nelsons Column?

This madness needs to stop. Shall we go through all of our history books deeming if anyone for whom we have a statue of has said/ written/ done anything that someone might find offensive and remove said statue?
 
balky12 said:
Is anyone actually genuinely offended by Nelsons Column?

This madness needs to stop. Shall we go through all of our history books deeming if anyone for whom we have a statue of has said/ written/ done anything that someone might find offensive and remove said statue?
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It wont. It is just another trend through mob mentality.
 
dowie said:
Sounds like a pretty tenuous 'link' to history, why should anyone give a crap that some statue in the background of your wedding photo might get torn down especially if it is among those erected, on the cheap, well after the civil war with the aim of subjugating black people.
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Thanks for your input, it's appreciated, but in the same vein as your post, do you think that I give a crap what you or anyone else feels about the Confederate memorial in my wedding photo?
I didn't ask anyone to care, or IF they cared, I just mentioned that there was a Civil War statue in my my wedding photo, because Civil War statues are in the news.
If it is removed, I'll care, but not too much, it will still be in my photo, just no longer on the Court House lawn where it stood since 1916.
Just out of curiosity, I have no idea of the cost of the statue, but apropos your "on the cheap" remark, does that mean that you know what it cost?
 
dowie said:
Sounds like a pretty tenuous 'link' to history, why should anyone give a crap that some statue in the background of your wedding photo might get torn down especially if it is among those erected, on the cheap, well after the civil war with the aim of subjugating black people.
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That was pretty rude given it means something to the poster that mentioned it. Regardless of your beliefs maybe that statue commemorates the confederate dead form the Civil War or does your blanket assumption cover all statues in the south
 
Jean-F said:
Thanks for your input, it's appreciated, but in the same vein as your post, do you think that I give a crap what you or anyone else feels about the Confederate memorial in my wedding photo?
I didn't ask anyone to care, or IF they cared, I just mentioned that there was a Civil War statue in my my wedding photo, because Civil War statues are in the news.
If it is removed, I'll care, but not too much, it will still be in my photo, just no longer on the Court House lawn where it stood since 1916.
Just out of curiosity, I have no idea of the cost of the statue, but apropos your "on the cheap" remark, does that mean that you know what it cost?
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I don't care about the statue in your wedding photo and likely neither do any of the people who may have some influence on whether it stays or goes, it is a non-issue and has practically no relevance to whether the local authority may or may not decide to take down the statue. No I don't know how much that specific statue cost(only you know which specific statue it even is as you've not given the name of the county), I do know that large number of these statues were produced cheaply in order to help subjugate black Americans during the Jim Crow era.

Do you know that the particular statue was one of the minority constructed as a monument in the immediate aftermath of the civil war or one of the many constructed decades later with some political motivation?

For example does the statue have any writing on the bottom attributed to the "United Daughters of the Confederacy"?

jimjamuk said:
That was pretty rude given it means something to the poster that mentioned it. Regardless of your beliefs maybe that statue commemorates the confederate dead form the Civil War or does your blanket assumption cover all statues in the south
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I don't think it is particularly rude, it is a straightforward point - who cares if the statue is in the background of his wedding photo - that is of pretty much no significance as far as the argument of whether or not to take down such a statue is concerned. What blanket assumption? Note the word 'if' in my post - I'm not making an assumption regarding this specific statue.
 
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Wasn't The Dukes of Hazzard the first for this target movement? They even removed the General Lee flag from the roof for the toy/collectable cars.
 
The best part about the whole thing is that those tearing the statues in the USA are all rabid lefty Democrat supporters.

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mmj_uk said:
The best part about the whole thing is that those tearing the statues in the USA are all rabid lefty Democrat supporters.

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That's great, as I know you are posting it as a satirical swipe at the morons who try and equate the Democrat party of the 1860's to the modern Democrats, thus displaying their complete ignorance or disingenuous representation of American political history.

Nice one :D
 
The Democrat party were extremely racist until at least the mid 1960's. I'm just highlighting the fact that if the left are going to destroy everything from history that triggers them then the Democrat party should be top of the list.
 
If someone tries to tear down the Winston Churchill statue in Parliament Square, it will be the final push i would need to actually physically involve myself in this crazy left-wing idiocy that is sweeping across universities..

And yes, people are actually calling for it to be taken down.
 
Jean-F said:
Thanks for your input, it's appreciated, but in the same vein as your post, do you think that I give a crap what you or anyone else feels about the Confederate memorial in my wedding photo?
I didn't ask anyone to care, or IF they cared, I just mentioned that there was a Civil War statue in my my wedding photo, because Civil War statues are in the news.
If it is removed, I'll care, but not too much, it will still be in my photo, just no longer on the Court House lawn where it stood since 1916.
Just out of curiosity, I have no idea of the cost of the statue, but apropos your "on the cheap" remark, does that mean that you know what it cost?
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As mentioned, Jim Crow statues aren't Civil War memorials.

mmj_uk said:
The Democrat party were extremely racist until at least the mid 1960's. I'm just highlighting the fact that if the left are going to destroy everything from history that triggers them then the Democrat party should be top of the list.
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The actual left probably wouldn't have an issue with that, since the Democrats aren't a left-wing party.
 
balky12 said:
Is anyone actually genuinely offended by Nelsons Column?

This madness needs to stop. Shall we go through all of our history books deeming if anyone for whom we have a statue of has said/ written/ done anything that someone might find offensive and remove said statue?
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Phallic symbol. Symptomatic of the oppression of women through the ages! It needs to come down to promote a gender neutral society! (There I just created one for you. Its not hard to invent something to take offence at if you try) :p
 
terley said:
If someone tries to tear down the Winston Churchill statue in Parliament Square, it will be the final push i would need to actually physically involve myself in this crazy left-wing idiocy that is sweeping across universities..

And yes, people are actually calling for it to be taken down.
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