Tearing down statues

[cheesyboy]

So if tearing down a statue is a blow to a white supremacist, it's worth the price? No other consideration needed?

Not necessarily.

But if a statue was commissioned by a white supremacist group, and continues to attract and empower white supremacists, then what reason is there to keep it?

There may be some reasons, but there may be need to at least consider adding extra information to the statue so that it can be understood in the correct context. Or there may be no real reason to let it remain - melt it down into railings.

 

[FoxEye]

Not necessarily.

But if a statue was commissioned by a white supremacist group, and continues to attract and empower white supremacists, then what reason is there to keep it?

Hmm.

Why stop at statues then. Internet forums created by white supremacists empower them to share their views. Those should be closed for exactly the same reasons you'd take down the statues.

Heck, Nazi memorabilia has the same effect. It should be banned from sale, impounded and destroyed.

Cosplaying as Nazis empowers these people. The wearing of such uniforms has no place and should be outlawed.

All those things I've mentioned empower white supremacists. Why stop at statues?

 

[cheesyboy]

Hmm.

Why stop at statues then. Internet forums created by white supremacists empower them to share their views. Those should be closed for exactly the same reasons you'd take down the statues.

Heck, Nazi memorabilia has the same effect. It should be banned from sale, impounded and destroyed.

Cosplaying as Nazis empowers these people. The wearing of such uniforms has no place and should be outlawed.

All those things I've mentioned empower white supremacists. Why stop at statues?

Because those things are all private activities, pastimes, or interests.

These statues are mounted on or outside civic institutions and in town/city centres.

You seem to be straining to avoid accepting this hypothesis, by bringing in more and more strenuous comparisons.

 

[Rifte]

Does anyone really believe that pulling down a statue is going to do anything but add petrol to the problem?

Its the equivalent of shaking a hornet's nest...

 

[FoxEye]

Because those things are all private activities, pastimes, or interests.

These statues are mounted on or outside civic institutions and in town/city centres.

You seem to be straining to avoid accepting this hypothesis, by bringing in more and more strenuous comparisons.

Nah the internet is a public space, esp forums. You can view alt-right and white supremacist forums after a simple Google search.

Wearing a Nazi uniform in a public space is by definition in the public domain. I'm not limiting such cosplay activities to inside their own home... you might have assumed that but what about wearing it in public?

Many things empower white supremacists. Once the statues are gone maybe there will be more public appetite to reign in those other examples I gave. I have no doubt that statues aren't the only things they want removed. When you're winning, you stop stop taking the fight to the enemy. That is plain.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Doing something like this does little for their cause when it creates such a divide in opinion.

Whatever good principles are behind the act, if the act is interpreted as bad, then people will associate the movement with the act rather than the principles.

Without people going into what it stands for or any agendas, look at how certain actions among some members of antifa and BLM have overshadowed any moral message they have and turned many people against them.

 

[FoxEye]

Does anyone really believe that pulling down a statue is going to do anything but add petrol to the problem?

Its the equivalent of shaking a hornet's nest...

You said it better than I did. This is just part of a larger struggle, and statues won't be the end of it. Pulling them down won't unite the country; won't stop racism from existing; won't do anything to change attitudes. It will inflame and cause resentment. It will divide opinion yet further.

The likely end result is that it adds fuel to both side's propaganda machines. One side will argue progress, the other side will argue their way of life is being threatened.

 

[Amp34]

I don't agree with the removal of statues, but what if that particular statue had become a rallying point for an extremist group peddling hate and fear?

Would you consider them that maybe it needs to be removed?

Subsequently as a local authority with a similar statue what would you do after said movement caused the murder of one and injury of a dozen or so more? Would you consider removing your statue as well, just in case it becomes another rallying location for said extremis group?

That's the main reason many of the statues removed in the last week have been taken down, for fear that they may be "next".

 

[Amp34]

It's just a concerted effort to make Trump's presidency untenable. By staging protests, many that turn violent, and tearing down statues they want to create a climate of civil unrest and push Trump into conceding the presidency.

Like a previous poster said before. They've had 8 years of Obama and these statues weren't being pulled down. There was nobody trying to connect the Confederate flag with the swastika.

Actually the confederate flag has been an issue for years. Not least since 2015 when most large retailers removed them from shelves after the mass shooting in charlestown by a white supremacist.

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.indep...fter-racist-church-massacre-10351602.html?amp

They've been controversial for decades and perceived as related to race hate for even longer.

I'm sure there are many that want a confederate flag for other reasons, but there is a prominent minority where for them it is a rallying call for hate.

 

[=XDC=FluphyBunny]

It is a load of nonsense hyped up by the media and used by the perpetually offended (usually for someone other than themselves).

The statues should have been left up with a more honest factual plaque / description of the person and events. Never going to happen as that would require people to read and maybe even think! Much easier to merely react.

 

[Amp34]

Which perpetually offended group? The ones with right wing views or left wing views? There's so much moaning on both sides nowadays.

 

[TallPaul1878]

Actually the confederate flag has been an issue for years. Not least since 2015 when most large retailers removed them from shelves after the mass shooting in charlestown by a white supremacist.

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/charleston-shooting-confederate-flag-still-divides-the-south-after-racist-church-massacre-10351602.html?amp

They've been controversial for decades and perceived as related to race hate for even longer.

I'm sure there are many that want a confederate flag for other reasons, but there is a prominent minority where for them it is a rallying call for hate.

I'm sure that there are plenty of neo-nazis types in America that adorn themselves in the Confederate flag but, as I said earlier, people are going to see whatever they choose in these symbols.

For one person it represents the struggle against big government, for another it represents white supremacy.

If neo-nazis types choose to run around with rainbow flags and then commit atrocities with said rainbow flags on show them are we to vilify that too?

I know it is a poor comparison but my point is not to compare different flags and symbols but the people who choose to commit evil acts will see whatever they want to see in whatever flag or image they choose to.

 

[Amp34]

I'm sure that there are plenty of neo-nazis types in America that adorn themselves in the Confederate flag but, as I said earlier, people are going to see whatever they choose in these symbols.

For one person it represents the struggle against big government, for another it represents white supremacy.

If neo-nazis types choose to run around with rainbow flags and then commit atrocities with said rainbow flags on show them are we to vilify that too?

I know it is a poor comparison but my point is not to compare different flags and symbols but the people who choose to commit evil acts will see whatever they want to see in whatever flag or image they choose to.

Regarding the rainbow flags - if not done ironically, then quite possibly yes.

Much like the feminist and liberal tags that many now see as toxic, images change and vary depending on the person "viewing" them.

Personally I don't have much of an opinion either way on the confederate flag - It's just a flag to me. However I can see why some view it the way they do. It appears to have been used as a symbol for race has and violence for a while now - way before Trumps presidency (that particular incident was during Obamas Presidency for example).

 

[Rotty]

Except that Mandela is the darling of the left regarded as some kind of secular saint so some excuse will be found to excuse his actions. No sir, that ain't gonna happen.


.

exactly, bloody hypocrites

 

[olivier renault]

http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/05...sts-quotes-abraham-lincoln-said-black-people/

Plenty more of his quotes here. Hardly a radical liberal. He was fine with upholding the status quo. Emancipation was simply a weapon to be wielded against Confederates.

I'm struggling to find a contemporary of Lincoln, more 'liberal' than him, as influential, and not totally despised by everyone. Maybe you can help.

I am against destroying statues or indeed any historical record of any kind no matter how objectionable it is to modern society

How about all those Eastern European countries tearing down statues of Lenin and Stalin in the 90's, Saddam Hussein's monuments to himself, or the 3rd reich being culturally bleached out of existence. Where do you draw the line. When is it OK to do so, and when is it not.

But I agree, mostly. These kids are just useful idiots. I find it hilarious, in a post-modernist way, anyway. 'All cultures are beautiful, except that one'. Well, make up your bloody mind.

 

[Tefal]

Not necessarily.

But if a statue was commissioned by a white supremacist group, and continues to attract and empower white supremacists, then what reason is there to keep it?

There may be some reasons, but there may be need to at least consider adding extra information to the statue so that it can be understood in the correct context. Or there may be no real reason to let it remain - melt it down into railings.

so what happens if the KKK paid for a nice big statue of Malcolm X or Martin Luther?

"pair for by the klan" underneath.

is it a white supremacist statue?

should it be torn down or not?

 

[Tefal]

I'm struggling to find a contemporary of Lincoln, more 'liberal' than him, as influential, and not totally despised by everyone. Maybe you can help.



How about all those Eastern European countries tearing down statues of Lenin and Stalin in the 90's, Saddam Hussein's monuments to himself, or the 3rd reich being culturally bleached out of existence. Where do you draw the line. When is it OK to do so, and when is it not.

But I agree, mostly. These kids are just useful idiots. I find it hilarious, in a post-modernist way, anyway. 'All cultures are beautiful, except that one'. Well, make up your bloody mind.

tbh i say move them to a meuseum.

but you're making a bit if a false comparison they where torn down in the high of revolution they had jist thrown off thier oppressors and tore down the satues they had been forced to pay for/build.


these are people who aren't even alive when the statues were built let alone the people they are of.

 

[cheesyboy]

so what happens if the KKK paid for a nice big statue of Malcolm X or Martin Luther?

"pair for by the klan" underneath.

is it a white supremacist statue?

should it be torn down or not?

I don't think that really fits the scenario I outlined, does it?

It's also pretty arbitrary ; what are you adding here?

 

[TallPaul1878]

It's all getting a bit silly again.

 

[Tefal]

I don't think that really fits the scenario I outlined, does it?

It's also pretty arbitrary ; what are you adding here?

oh it certainly would fit your scenario, its pretty much the only statue that fits your requirements of

But if a statue was commissioned by a white supremacist group, and continues to attract and empower white supremacists

are there any such statues in America?

the only statue i could see "empowering" white supremacists (also has any white supremacist group, got permission for, and funded a new public statue?) would be one built as a troll as i said.

The publicity factor, and social media impact of having antifa etc wanting to rip down a martin Luther statue would be massive.