The American Police

[StriderX]

This is how western democracy works, you are free until told elsewise for the good of yourself and others.

In 2020, nearly 3000 people suffered directly as victims of mass shootings in the US and precisely zero people suffered similarly in the UK.

I think I know what I prefer.

EDIT: Additionally,

In 2018, the homicide per capita in the US was 4.96 per 100000, in the UK it was 1.20 per 100000.

 

[FoxEye]

This is how western democracy works, you are free until told elsewise for the good of yourself and others.

In 2020, nearly 3000 people suffered directly as victims of mass shootings in the US and precisely zero people suffered similarly in the UK.

I think I know what I prefer.

Maybe if everybody had a tank, they'd be able to protect themselves from people with automatic rifles?

 

[Maple Leaf]

In fact there are many studies on this and in general they show that restricting the means of suicide does actually reduce overall suicides.

Who conducted these studies? What was their political bias? I see so much prejudice against civilian gun ownership from psychologists that I doubt they can be relied upon to let their personal feelings get in the way of their preferred research outcome.

Furthermore, here in Yorkshire our total suicide rate was 13.95 per 100,000 in 2019 [1], whereas it was 14.8 per 100,000 in 2018 in the USA (latest CDC data) [2].

Not much difference there, is there? And yet, very few people in Yorkshire commit suicide with firearms (~4%), or even have access to firearms. Hanging is the commonest method here. If someone wants to kill themselves, then without a timely mental health intervention, they will find a way. They even manage to commit suicide in maximum security prisons, so trying to restrict their access to another means of committing suicide outside prison seems rather ridiculous.

[1] Suicides in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics (ons.gov.uk)

[2] FastStats - Suicide and Self-Inflicted Injury (cdc.gov)

Yes, USA suicide rate is 4.3 per 100,000. My figures are actually 7.32 at 2017 rate so some what higher.

I said: 'The homicide by firearms rate in the USA was 4.3 per 100,000: FastStats - Homicide (cdc.gov)' not the the suicide rate.

If you read the line before the section of my comment that you quoted you will see I said: 'According to the CDC, the suicide by firearms rate in the USA in 2018 was 7.5 per 100,000 people: FastStats - Suicide and Self-Inflicted Injury (cdc.gov)' which is close to your figure for 2017.

So would these suicides used another method? Suicide rate for UK was 0.16. That is almost 500 times the US rate. Difficult to dispute the figures.

Yes, I suspect the majority of them would just use a different method. You have to bear in mind that in the USA there is no NHS and people pay through the nose for elective medical care if they have no medical insurance (or a crap policy), so many serious mental illnesses go untreated there. That's also why they have so many spree-killers. They could really lower the violent crime rate and the body count by just having a robust system of free-at-the-point-of-use healthcare.

I don't know where you're getting your figures from. The suicide rate in the UK in 2019 was 11 per 100,000: Suicides in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics (ons.gov.uk) Far higher than your 0.16 per 100,000 and less than 30% lower than the USA's figure.

Given the US's male suicide rate is approximately double the UK's.... yes, a lot of them might well still be alive. Suicide by firearm is a lot more straightforward, and irreversible, than many other methods.

Hanging is the commonest method here. That's pretty straightforward and irreversible too. Lack of access to affordable medical care for people in a mental health crisis has to be a big factor in the USA.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Some countries have 1 gun for every 3 people, for example Finland yet their homicide rate is the same as ours.

In the UK, even when we had no gun control laws on the statute books, our homicide rate was lower than it is now. The increasingly strict gun control legislation here has not lowered the UK murder rate according to the RECORDED CRIME STATISTICS FOR ENGLAND AND WALES 1898 - 2002.

If legally held firearms were once commonly used in UK homicides then they have simply been replaced by illegally held firearms or other weapons.

Only prospective spree-killers with legally held firearms may have been impacted by the tightened firearms laws, but the Police already have the powers to confiscate legally held firearms if they suspect that the owner is unfit/psychotic. Indeed, any future spree-killer with some intelligence could improvise weapons that would be just as deadly as the obsolete firearms that are still legally available in the UK. Bear in mind that spree-killers typically commit suicide after committing their massacres so are unlikely to be bothered by the punishments for owning illegal firearms and explosives.

 

[deuse]

Yes but the rules surround them are very strict and if you break a rule it's a mandatory prison sentence.

The same in the US.
But they get real prison time.

 

[deuse]

99.9% can't own/possess/fire one.

Otherwise they would. The only thing that stops your average law abiding person from possessing guns here in the UK is that it's not legal for your average law abiding person to own one. They simply wouldn't be issued a license, or even have grounds to apply for one.

What's the ownership criteria in the US? It's nowhere near as restrictive, and even having a diagnosed mental health issue doesn't stop you walking into a shop and buying a gun, last I heard...

You got anything to back you up on that 99%

If anyone bought a deactivated gun before the EU put there rules in.
All that was missing was the firing pin.

 

[Nasher]

Maybe if everybody had a tank, they'd be able to protect themselves from people with automatic rifles?

Or issue everyone with suitcase nukes.

 

[PlacidCasual]

Handing them out to the wrong people seems to be the biggest issue.

Some countries have 1 gun for every 3 people, for example Finland yet their homicide rate is the same as ours.

How would you explain this?

It is an interesting question and must be highly cultural. What sort of firearms do Finns own? Is it 99% rifles for hunting and thus the strong hunting culture by some innate facet indoctrinates high levels of good firearms handling practice. Is criminality in Finnish society lower than in other OECD countries because of population distribution, welfare state, culture or other reason thus the sense of need for weapons for self defence is lower?
The Israeli's are often cited about gun ownership but I would assume that every single gun owner in Israel has been a member of their armed forces and a large proportion remain reservists. So have been trained to a high standard on good firearm practice.

American gun ownership is a problem that is never going away. It's not even worth discussing in that sense. It's very sad and I feel for them but it is what it is. Short of Benjamin Franklin or similar returning in a time machine and saying "what we meant by the 2nd (?) amendment was membership of a regulated militia or national guard not personal gun ownership" it ain't changing.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

This is how western democracy works, you are free until told elsewise for the good of yourself and others.

In 2020, nearly 3000 people suffered directly as victims of mass shootings in the US and precisely zero people suffered similarly in the UK.

I think I know what I prefer.

EDIT: Additionally,

In 2018, the homicide per capita in the US was 4.96 per 100000, in the UK it was 1.20 per 100000.

It’s worth noting that the UK’s most recent mass shootings were down to failures of the relevant police forces to confiscate the legally held firearms from two individuals known to be mentally unstable and unfit to possess said firearms.

 

[pp111]

The same in the US.
But they get real prison time.

Minimum five years for any firearm offence. Now what I mean by firearm crime of course is not something like murder, but things like carrying a gun in public, owning a handgun, etc. What a lot of people in the UK don't realise is that most of these laws don't just apply to real guns, they also apply to anything that looks like a gun. So air pistols, replica guns....minimum five years. As an example, if you take an air pistol when you go fishing, to shoot rats stealing your bait, you are in fact breaking the law. You may have a fishing license but you don't have a shooting license, so you will be arrested and charged with trespass with a firearm - minimum five years. Of course if a real firearm is involved then you are more likely to get ten, and if you actually intended or did harm anyone then it's life. Certain types of gun are also banned, including pistols and automatic rifles. Own one of those and you don't even have to do anything to end up in prison.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Minimum five years for any firearm offence. Now what I mean by firearm crime of course is not something like murder, but things like carrying a gun in public, owning a handgun, etc. What a lot of people in the UK don't realise is that most of these laws don't just apply to real guns, they also apply to anything that looks like a gun. So air pistols, replica guns....minimum five years. As an example, if you take an air pistol when you go fishing, to shoot rats stealing your bait, you are in fact breaking the law. You may have a fishing license but you don't have a shooting license, so you will be arrested and charged with trespass with a firearm - minimum five years. Of course if a real firearm is involved then you are more likely to get ten, and if you actually intended or did harm anyone then it's life. Certain types of gun are also banned, including pistols and automatic rifles. Own one of those and you don't even have to do anything to end up in prison.

Air weapons are legally classed as firearms, they just don’t require a licence when their muzzle energy is below certain legal limits.

11.99 foot pounds = no FAC required. 12.01 foot pounds = same FAC required as if you had a .577 Nitro Express elephant gun.

 

[operator400]

The one thing that puzzles me about police shootings in America is you can have half a dozen cops empty their magazine into someone and the person is dead as can be and the first thing they do is handcuff a dead body.

 

[deuse]

Minimum five years for any firearm offence. Now what I mean by firearm crime of course is not something like murder, but things like carrying a gun in public, owning a handgun, etc. What a lot of people in the UK don't realise is that most of these laws don't just apply to real guns, they also apply to anything that looks like a gun. So air pistols, replica guns....minimum five years. As an example, if you take an air pistol when you go fishing, to shoot rats stealing your bait, you are in fact breaking the law. You may have a fishing license but you don't have a shooting license, so you will be arrested and charged with trespass with a firearm - minimum five years. Of course if a real firearm is involved then you are more likely to get ten, and if you actually intended or did harm anyone then it's life. Certain types of gun are also banned, including pistols and automatic rifles. Own one of those and you don't even have to do anything to end up in prison.

You're way off the mark by some margin.

Carrying a loaded Air-weapon in a public place 6 months imprisonment and / or £5,000 fine.
Trespassing with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.
Trespassing on private land with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.

http://www.prestonshooters.org.uk/downloads/misc/pdf/airgun_rules.pdf

 

[deuse]

The one thing that puzzles me about police shootings in America is you can have half a dozen cops empty their magazine into someone and the person is dead as can be and the first thing they do is handcuff a dead body.

It's been a standard thing for years.

 

[pp111]

You're way off the mark by some margin.

Carrying a loaded Air-weapon in a public place 6 months imprisonment and / or £5,000 fine.
Trespassing with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.
Trespassing on private land with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.

http://www.prestonshooters.org.uk/downloads/misc/pdf/airgun_rules.pdf

It's true, I didn't know that there were some exceptions for air pistols, but I don't think this is a discussion about air pistols. I was only highlighting how tough the laws are that they can even apply to something that even looks like a gun.

 

[deuse]

It's true, I didn't know that there were some exceptions for air pistols, but I don't think this is a discussion about air pistols. I was only highlighting how tough the laws are that they can even apply to something that even looks like a gun.

I showed the laws on what you mentioned and it's not tough.

"only a court can decide whether any particular weapon is capable of causing "more than trifling and trivial" injury and is therefore is a "firearm"

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/firearms

The UK system should be more straight forward.
Looks to be a mess to me.

 

[Maple Leaf]

If anyone bought a deactivated gun before the EU put there rules in.
All that was missing was the firing pin.

Yes, someone who bought a firearm which was deactivated to the 1989 standard might be able to reactivate it. However, if they are caught with it afterwards they are looking at a mandatory minimum 5 year prison sentence in the UK. Furthermore, possession of section 1 firearm ammunition without a firearm certificate carries a further minimum 2 year prison sentence. Homemade ammunition is treated similarly. In fact, primers cannot legally be owned in the UK without a firearms certificate either.

Carrying a loaded Air-weapon in a public place 6 months imprisonment and / or £5,000 fine.
Trespassing with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.
Trespassing on private land with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.

Yes, and the response to this by poachers round my way is to use commercially made hunting catapults (US = slingshots) to bag rabbits. Ironically, those catapults are totally unregulated by UK law and have draw weights of up to 30 lbs and draw lengths of up to 36 inches, so can generate 90 foot-pounds of power. The projectile energies they produce are probably half that though, but even so, 45 ft-lbs behind a 10 mm lead 91 grains ball bearing greatly exceeds a non-FAC air rifle (max power 12 ft-lbs in 4.5/5.5mm with 6/10 grains) or a non-FAC air pistol (6 ft-lbs and 4.5 mm with 6 grains) in terms of its capability to cause serious injuries to passers-by.

 

[deuse]

Yes, someone who bought a firearm which was deactivated to the 1989 standard might be able to reactivate it. However, if they are caught with it afterwards they are looking at a mandatory minimum 5 year prison sentence in the UK. Furthermore, possession of section 1 firearm ammunition without a firearm certificate carries a further minimum 2 year prison sentence. Homemade ammunition is treated similarly. In fact, primers cannot legally be owned in the UK without a firearms certificate either.



Yes, and the response to this by poachers round my way is to use commercially made hunting catapults (US = slingshots) to bag rabbits. Ironically, those catapults are totally unregulated by UK law and have draw weights of up to 30 lbs and draw lengths of up to 36 inches, so can generate 90 foot-pounds of power. The projectile energies they produce are probably half that though, but even so, 45 ft-lbs behind a 10 mm lead 91 grains ball bearing greatly exceeds a non-FAC air rifle (max power 12 ft-lbs in 4.5/5.5mm with 6/10 grains) or a non-FAC air pistol (6 ft-lbs and 4.5 mm with 6 grains) in terms of its capability to cause serious injuries to passers-by.

Did you ever read my post fully?

""only a court can decide whether any particular weapon is capable of causing "more than trifling and trivial" injury and is therefore is a "firearm"

I even left a link to the REAL rules.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Did you ever read my post fully?

""only a court can decide whether any particular weapon is capable of causing "more than trifling and trivial" injury and is therefore is a "firearm"

I even left a link to the REAL rules.

Not sure what in my post you are disagreeing with. A Court would definitely accept that, for example, an illegally re-activated bolt-action .303 SMLE rifle is a licensable section 1 firearm and give you 5 years imprisonment for unlicensed possession of it.

However, how could any UK Court decide that a catapult is a firearm? Section 57 (1) of the Firearms Act 1968 states that a firearm is 'a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged'. Your Preston Shooters linked text states that the definition of a "lethal weapon" is 'a weapon capable of firing a projectile with sufficient force to inflict more than a trivial injury i.e. with sufficient force to puncture skin'.

Surely, the key in this context is the word "barrelled". Catapults, slingshots, crossbows, longbows, compound bows and recurve bows don't have a barrel and so even if they are classified as a "lethal weapon" they can never legally be defined as a firearm.

"Lethal weapons" are not automatically illegal in the UK. The Offensive Weapons Acts banned some of them, like flick knives, balisongs etc, but catapults, slingshots and bows were never mentioned in them. Recently, they have also banned curve-bladed swords (including katanas), knuckle dusters, combat style knives, zombie knives etc, unless they are antiques.

 

[Graetzbridge]

Folks, are we diverging from the topic about the American police?