The BBFC are at it again..

~J~ said:
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Nicely written, and I appreciate your views on the subject.

I still feel an outright ban is entirely wrong.

Where would the line be drawn?
From what you've said about Battlefield 2, maybe that should be banned?

I keep mentioning the ban on Gears of War for a reason, that it's a much loved game in this country, but has been banned elsewhere for being too violent.

We may not think Gears of War is too violent, but, as with Manhunt II, if the BBFC had decided it was, then Gears of War would've been banned in this country too.

I wonder how many of the people who say "I'm glad it's banned" would be so glad if games they wanted to play were banned. This is why I was getting annoyed with the selfishness of people earlier. It's all well and good when it's a game they don't care about being banned, and stuff anybody else who may like it.

Of course, if Gears of War was banned, a lot of people wouldn't even know what the game was like in the first place, to complain about it being banned. Who's to say Manhunt II is actually as bad as all that? I haven't seen it to make my own opinion, and that right has been taken away now.

Slap an 18 on it.
Educate parents not to give kids 18 games.
As for sickos who may get hold of the game, they may also get hold of Hostel, so better ban it, and may get hold of some violent books. Better ban those too.

I really aren't sure what can be done about the mentaly unstable people out there, who could be affected by games/tv/movies/books/music, but surely banning it for all people isn't the answer?

V1N.

EDIT: remember in the 80's when people like Judas Priest, and Ozzy Osbourne were in the docks, accused of causing the suicide of kids through their music? It's all the same to me, you can't ban that. If they were to blame, kids in the 80's would've been dropping like flies. They did try though. Now they've moved onto video games. Slippery slope, once they start getting bans approved, what's next?
 
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~J~ said:
I don't think at all that computer games are responsible for crimes, I think anyone who uses that excuse is just using it as a cliché because it worked years ago and they'll try it again.
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Except that playing violent computer games does have an effect on a person's physiology, including increasing levels of aggression. The vast majority of people can control that aggression so it's not much of a problem, however for the tiny majority that don't, I don't think it's a good idea that they should have access to games like Manhunt.
 
scorza said:
Except that playing violent computer games does have an effect on a person's physiology, including increasing levels of aggression. The vast majority of people can control that aggression so it's not much of a problem, however for the tiny majority that don't, I don't think it's a good idea that they should have access to games like Manhunt.
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Oh come now, the same can be said of any video game,

I remember getting hellish as a kid when I died on Pacman, but I didn't immediately go and try to find a load of pills to swallow, nor did I try to execute anybody.

Bring it forward to today, and I had a game of Super Stardust earlier.
Was doing quite well, and died a stupid death, crashed into a lone rock.
I probably get more annoyed playing that, than I do the more "realistic" games, but I don't feel the need to jump in a spaceship and blow the hell out of some asterioids, nor go out and kill anybody.

As far as the argument goes about acting out the killing in game, by pressing X (!) surely violent books are far worse. We all know that reading books can be better than the film, as you visualise it all in your mind. So surely, reading a book, where you're visualising the murdering, could be said to be more harmful than the equivalent PS2 graphics?

Yeah, let's ban books!

Videogames are just the latest scapegoat.

V1N.
 
V1N said:
Yes, one can hope.

Violent games, like the aforemention Gears of War, maybe the next step will be banning those in this country too, after all, it's happened elsewhere. Once they manage to get one ban to stick, they can move on. Maybe you think Gears of War should be banned as well though? Or maybe it's not too bad, and you can make your own choice as to whether to buy it or not, not have some comittee somewhere decide for you?

In the end, we'll have cutsey games with flowers, and pretty colours, and all politically correct, so as not to cause offence to a single soul, who could potentially exist.

OK, maybe that last statement was a bit OTT, but for crying out loud, banning these games isn't at all the right way of going about things.
If it really was just violent rubbish, and nothing else, it wouldn't do very well anyway, wouldn't make any money, and they'd not make another.

I honestly can't see how banning a video game like this can be anything but wrong and bad.

Tighten up laws about games being sold to kids?
Sure!

Have a bloody great sticker on the front saying "WARNING: DON'T GIVE THIS TO YOUR KIDS" but don't take the choice away from the average man on the street.

V1N.

Sorry, I wasn't going to post any more in this thread. I seem to have got drawn back into it again, I have made my point though, and all I can do is repeat myself, so I'll go again now. People are free to disagree, I just wish they'd think about what it is they're disagreeing to. More censorship? People that believe that because something's not good enough for them, it isn't good enough for anybody else? Very dictatorship indeed!
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You are an articulate person, and therefore I assume intelligent, and you are absolutely right that this game (or others like it) would not cause you or others like you, to go out and behave violently. Censorship is not intended for people like you. You are right to feel frustrated that choice has been taken away from you.

What a lot of articulate, intelligent people do not see is that the vast majority of the population are not articulate or intelligent. You could write what you like on the box; they will buy it for their children to keep them quiet for half an hour. I doubt they would even read the cover.

So your faced with either annoying a good few people, like yourself, by banning the game, and hopefully also thus educating the games producing companies. Or you can let it be released, with big warnings about violent content, which will ensure it gets more press coverage that it probably deserves, and thus ends up being played by lots of impressionable young people.

Tough call, but I think the right one in this case. Gears of War? It wasnt banned, probably because the line between fantasy shoot-em-up and reality was a bit clearer, but then I'd be guessing.

Cheers for a good discussion,
 
scorza said:
Except that playing violent computer games does have an effect on a person's physiology, including increasing levels of aggression. The vast majority of people can control that aggression so it's not much of a problem, however for the tiny majority that don't, I don't think it's a good idea that they should have access to games like Manhunt.
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Exactly my point.

I do agree with what you're saying, I can see practically every view from other members. V1N above said some brilliant words, and one thing that certainly rings true for me is that "I" WANT to play the game, so by agreeing with the ban, then I'm missing out.

But I do see what you're saying. Youtube is full of, what you and I and other 'sane' people will see as hillarious videos of kids screeching their heads off because they've been head-shot on Halo. Throwing the controller, smashing the xbox, yanking the cables so hard the TV comes crashing down. Utter utter madness. Bad parenting? e-numbers in sweets? Junk food? Lack of sleep? Mental problems? Sign of the times? I don't think anyone knows.

I too have been guilty of having a race on PGR3, getting 'accidentally' bumped and shouting "O you ******* idiot", but again, you, I, 99.9% of people on here are sane enough to get mad, then forget about it. But somewhere in the world, there's some disturbed person that is gonna take it all personal and go, for want of a better word, postal.

BBFC is gonna blame the software house. Software house is gonna blame the parents. Parents are gonna blame their kids. Kids are gonna blame the world.

Perhaps my words earlier aren't entirely accurate (and I'm not gonna cheat by editing my post). I still don't agree with the ban, not at all, but I can now understand why they've done it and if it were me would simply have to say "Look, my hands are tied, I've got no other option".

It's such a shame 'cos it does look a damn good game.
 
Yeah, let's ban books!
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Well books and films are very different to interactive games.

Usually games reward the player for commiting violent acts, in fact they often actively encourage acts of violence.

Maybe if the ratings system was more reliably enforced then the BBFC wouldn't ban the game.
 
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God I've never read such crap in my life, honestly if someone is screwed up enough to go out and kill someone because a game influenced them (and I use that term loosely), they shouldn't be walking the streets in the first place.

As for keeping it out of the hands of kids I 100% agree, but banning it is a step too far and is completely unfair to all of us who are old enough to make our own decisions. I just see it as the easy way out for them instead of dealing with the real issue, which is stores selling to underage kids or selling to the kids parents knowing full well its for the kid. Also parents need to take more responsability and pay more attention to what their kids are doing, instead of buying them GTA just to shut them up, I was out the other day and saw a kid no older then 5 playing GTA Vice city stories on his PSP just so his mother could get a few hours of peace and quiet :rolleyes: As far as the kid is concerned it was just a fighting and driving game he didnt know what the hell was going on or why he's beating the crap out of the people in the game.

Banning the game isnt going to solve anything, murder isnt going to go away, crime rates arent going to suddenly drastically drop. This is usually because the people who commit these crimes are usually messed up before they even touch the game and even if the the game is banned they will just be influenced by something else such as drugs, alcohol etc

I'm only 19, I grew up in the 'Playstation era' with GTA and Manhunt so I do know what I'm talking about since I was getting a hold of these games with ease and playing them, my parents couldnt give a toss what I was doing aslong as I was quiet, but luckily I knew the difference between whats right and whats wrong. And if I ever have kids I will let them play certain games/watch certain films that I myself would deem suitable aslong as they were mature. I'm talking about a 15 year old boy playing a game such as Gears of War maybe, not a 7 year old playing a game like Manhunt.

Also back to the parents, I often see kids no older then 14, 15 hanging around my area at 3 am drinking cheap cider, mouthing off at passers-by, thinking they are all that because they are hanging around in a big group. Its situations like this what lead to kids murdering people not down to them playing a game. And is why I always make sure I take a Taxi home if I've been out drinking. The police do **** all as well until something actually happens like murder or an assault and unless its something that they deem serious they will just get a telling off and sent on their way.

I can go on and on but I think I've made my point.
 
scorza said:
For the record, I'm in favour of banning some books as well - e.g. the anarchist's cookbook, some Islamic literature etc.
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Ah well, if we're gunna start banning books, I guess they'd have to start with the Bible.

That book is responsible for more vicious deaths than any video game ;)

V1N.

(Yep, being a bit stupid now - but true, nonetheless)
 
V1N said:
Ah well, if we're gunna start banning books, I guess they'd have to start with the Bible.

That book is responsible for more vicious deaths than any video game ;)

V1N.

(Yep, being a bit stupid now - but true, nonetheless)
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Not true :p
 
scorza said:
Except that playing violent computer games does have an effect on a person's physiology, including increasing levels of aggression. The vast majority of people can control that aggression so it's not much of a problem, however for the tiny majority that don't, I don't think it's a good idea that they should have access to games like Manhunt.
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So do a great many things, should we ban them as well ?

Alcohol makes many people more agressive, far more so than any computer game ever will shall we ban that ?

Watching football makes most people more agressive, shall we outlaw that as well ?

Not getting laid in a guarenteed way to make a man more agressive shall we ban that as well ?

being stuck in traffic makes people more agressive, shall we ban that ?

Yes playing violent computer games makes people more agressive, but then so does anything where there is some sort of competition, be it against Ai or other people, it's basic human nature. Anything where there is some sort of goal to attain will make people more competitive and by definition more prone to agressive outbursts doesn't mean we have to ban anything that involves competition does it ?

I personally couldn't care less about manhunt 2, but then i should be able to play it if i want to, we give people the choice to buy alcohol even though we know full well that it costs the country billions of pounds to clean up after a few morons, we tolerate that yet apparently we can't tolerate a game which will make a comparitively tiny proportion of people a bit more likely to break a controller, not beat 7 shades of crap out of someone else who may or may not have looked at them funny.

It's hypocracy pure and simple IMO.

Like a Us general said during Vietnam about society and it's base hypocracy, "it's fine to drop tons of napalm on other human beings yet it's considered obscene to write **** on the bombs"
 
The Darkness said:
You are an articulate person, and therefore I assume intelligent, and you are absolutely right that this game (or others like it) would not cause you or others like you, to go out and behave violently. Censorship is not intended for people like you. You are right to feel frustrated that choice has been taken away from you.

What a lot of articulate, intelligent people do not see is that the vast majority of the population are not articulate or intelligent. You could write what you like on the box; they will buy it for their children to keep them quiet for half an hour. I doubt they would even read the cover.

So your faced with either annoying a good few people, like yourself, by banning the game, and hopefully also thus educating the games producing companies. Or you can let it be released, with big warnings about violent content, which will ensure it gets more press coverage that it probably deserves, and thus ends up being played by lots of impressionable young people.

Tough call, but I think the right one in this case. Gears of War? It wasnt banned, probably because the line between fantasy shoot-em-up and reality was a bit clearer, but then I'd be guessing.

Cheers for a good discussion,
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What a lot of articulate, intelligent people do not see is that the vast majority of the population are not articulate or intelligent.
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And so we have to suffer because of them?

they will buy it for their children to keep them quiet for half an hour. I doubt they would even read the cover.
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If that's the case "they" are bad parents and will mess up their kids in other ways. Nothing anyone can do about that

Does that however warrant the choice being taken away from them (an in effect us)? I could argue along the exact same line that all cars should be limited to 80mph. Otherwise "they" will drive over it endangering innocent lives. We should ban all alcohol too to prevent under 18's from drinking.

See the problem with your logic? The commitee can slap on any comments or ratings they want. The can't (or shouldn't in this case) however dictate exactly what can or can't be played by the British public.
 
Spud21 said:
We give people the choice to buy alcohol even though we know full well that it costs the country billions of pounds to clean up after a few morons, we tolerate that yet apparently we can't tolerate a game which will make a comparitively tiny proportion of people a bit more likely to break a controller, not beat 7 shades of crap out of someone else who may or may not have looked at them funny.
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They probably make a hell of a lot more money from taxes and duty on Alcohol then it costs them for all the mess they have to clean up, plus who's money are the government actually using? The tax payers, not their own thats for sure. Same with Cigars, fags, tabacco etc even though it is a proven to be a killer, they wont outlaw them due to the ammount of money they get from it. That and also if they even tried to ban either of them millions of people wouldn't stand for it and everything would become chaos.
 
Here is my view on games, movies and banning.

First of all kids shouldn't be playing games that they aren't old enough for and if they DO, then the parents have little/no right to complain about violence in them.

There is a line of both fantasy and reality, games are able to create a high that dissconnects us from reality and sends us into a new world of fantasy, if people have trouble keeping both worlds seperate they clearly shouldn't be playing games.

I disagree with the banning of Manhunt 2 totally. I feel that I have little/no say in what content is suitable for me. What you think and what you act out are two different things. A violent/sick/gore game/movie to one person is just another film to another - you can't handle it go watch something else.

I don't think banning violent games will stop pyschopaths roaming the streets as they work on a different level of sickness, they have a seriously illness and something wrong with thier brain.

I consider myself a huge fan of violent games and horror is my best genre of movies, I watched them when I was young and still do, I've seen a fair collection, some of which were rejected by the BBFC and since I obtain them using different methods most of them I usually get the uncut U.S versions, oppose to the crappy BBFC cuts. I've never felt like acting out anything that I saw in a movie.
 
I dont agree with them banning it, but I can understand why they have when a friend of mine tellls me that he lets his 6 year old son play GTA and GoW which both carry 18 certificates. This is more a case of bad parenting IMO, and if parents wont control what games their kids are playing I can see why it has been banned.

I do agree with V1N though as banning Manhunt 2 does strengthen the desire of people to own the game not because they really want it but because they are not allowed to have it. I for one wouldnt have bothered with the game much in the same way I havent watched Hostel.
Im not that interested in mindless gore fests so dont watch them, it doesnt mean I think no-one else should watch them either.

Its the same for this game and any other violent game that may come out in the future, as the consumers we should have a choice but we at the same time should be responsible with that choice.
If we cant be responsible they take the choice away and thats whats happened here.
 
There are plenty of violent games that are BBFC approved, the fact that MH2 has been banned tells me that Rockstar have crossed the line. They've been pushing the boundaries for a long time and the line had to be drawn somewhere, i'm glad the BBFC have banned it because companies like Rockstar would have just kept on pushing and pushing in the quest for increased game sales through media 'outrage'.

Just to quote from the BBFC...

"The BBFC's verdict of the game is damning: "Manhunt 2 is distinguishable from recent high-end video games by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone in an overall game context which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing," the organisation said today.

"There is sustained and cumulative casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged, in the game," it added, and highlighted "the game's unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying and the sheer lack of alternative pleasures on offer to the gamer"."

You can't compare this to games like GOW, thats what the BBFC is trying to tell you, that MH2 just goes too far this time, they are not anti violent video games, they are anti games that encourage extreme violence for kicks, which is absolutely right.
 
V1N said:
Look at the stuff like surgery programmes you get on TV, where you see blood and guts etc. Now, some people are probably appalled at this.
It's not my cup of tea either.
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I can't stand surgery programmes they make me cringe, but I'd happily play Manhunt as its not realistic. It is on consoles that aren't graphically demanding so it cant look really real.

I can't believe they banned it again.
 
as if banning this game will have any effect on peoples behaviour?

some kid was shot point blank in the head the other day, what can we blame that on, rap music?
 
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