Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (April Poll)

[Cold Fusion]

Eldergeek you might want to star out your swear's FULLY as that's against the forum rules.

Also might want to keep things civil otherwise the mods will enforce the rules / shut the thread down.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, no mater how divisive.

 

[datalol-jack]

What have I just walked in to...

Oh well, blast away.

 

[SlyReaper]

Why does anyone bother arguing, one side thinks the other is a fascist and the other side thinks the opposing is a racist.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Mulder]

I linked to a report that shows Britain is one of the most important countries during the EU negotiation process. You showed me Britain wins 86% of the votes and yet you still claim it lacks influence. The second most powerful country in the block not having influence is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence.

Oh and you mentioned the number 55 but you failed to mention exactly which laws we are discussing. Is this because, unlike the S&Y report, you can't find them on the first Google hits page?

The 55 are at the back of here. Together with evidence around how our % of votes in the council, our representation in the eu parliament and our influence in the commission have all been eroded.

Your one piece of evidence that we have influence (which is taken from EU officials themselves, so I wouldn't count it for much) is written by Simon Hix, who has himself quoted (Google it):

"However, we need to think more creatively about how to make the EU work better for us, its citizens, rather than the interests of Europe's political and economic elites"

He seems to get the issue here

The EFTA countries have to accept what the EU decides. The Swiss voted to end free movement in 2014 yet they gave Croatians free movement 3 weeks ago. You want Britain in a similar position?

Did you see the graphic posted earlier about the difference between being in EFTA and being in the EU? I'm guessing not.

The Swiss get to negotiate their own trade deals, which is possibly why they've been very successful in doing so in recent years. The free movement referendum is still up in the air, the EU has put the talks on hold because they know it will help the UK's case to leave. If your argument is "well the EU will just bully us to accept stuff regardless" then great reason to want to stay.

You said China and India are the fastest growing markets for our services. You were talking in the present and you were wrong. They are not the fastest, not even close as China is actually contracting. I advised you to check the ONS before answering, now you're trying to weasel your way out of the initial claim.

Yes, historically speaking, the services exports to those countries grew faster but considering they have had double digit economic growth, that's normal. Those markets are still incredibly tiny compared to the EU, despite having much larger populations. A loss of services exports after Brexit will not be recovered from those small markets.

China is contracting? Nah, it grew 6.9% last year. As you say, always good to check facts before posting.

And again rather than focusing on the actual issue here (i.e. the EU being only 30% of our services exports and growing more slowly than the US and the other countries I posted over a 10 year period) you're just trying to focus the debate on pointless sub plots.

 

[datalol-jack]

We continue with our battling repertoire...

 

[El Pew]

We continue with our battling repertoire...

I'd prefer "Ride of the Valkyries" myself, although it was written by a notorious German racist so it might not be so appropriate...

 

[datalol-jack]

I'd prefer "Ride of the Valkyries" myself, although it was written by a notorious German racist so it might not be so appropriate...

Why not go for the full rendition of Der Ring des Nibelungen, followed by an in-character reading of the collected works and correspondence of HPL? Let's go all out!

Ah well, since a bunch of Quitters are either secret or vocal Atlanticists, why not throw down a different classic for a few euros more!

 

[Admiral Huddy]

Any further personal attacks and foul mouth posting like I've just had to remove will result in a lengthy suspension. It will not be tolerated under any circumstances..

Move on, don't quote or discuss this..

 

[Narj]

I'd prefer "Ride of the Valkyries" myself, although it was written by a notorious German racist so it might not be so appropriate...

Wagner is epic, though, regardless.

Along the same lines, a lot of the military music that was composed in that era was very good stuff indeed and surprisingly cheery. It's just sad that its links and origins (and hence it being deemed offensive) mean it's pretty much forgotten these days.

Sorry, way OT.

 

[Mr Jack]

Hence why we should wait to see the detail before spacking out about how evil TTIP is... it's not finalised, and we'll be able to see the final text before it has to pass the double democratic lock. That's the time to spack, if that's reasonable... preemptively spacking is retarded.

If the intention was for the draft to be made public followed by a period of consultation and revision with time to address concerns before it goes into law then I would agree. This is not the case. Instead, efforts have been made to ensure that the TTIP gets speedy post-finalisation ratification. This being the case I think it's entirely appropriate to protest vigorously now to ensure that the problems we see in other similar treaties are not carried into the TTIP.

And it's not their own dispute resolution system vs a common system of justice... it's a common dispute resolution system instead of having to deal with a myriad of different legal systems, some of which are more respected than others!

What you describe as "having to deal with a myriad of different legal systems", I would describe as "having to respect the legal systems of a country in which you wish to operate". I see no reason to allow special status for Investor-State dispute and, especially, no reason to remove the usual principle of law that a complainant to a higher court must exhaust their usual pathway of claims through lower courts. The secrecy and unaccountability of the ISDS systems in other trade pacts are another serious cause for concern.

Again, it's stupid to say the arbitration system TTIP would use is terrible until we see the detail... assuming it'll be the same in other deals is stupid, imo, It might be right to fight it in the future... but right now it seems premature.

Since none of my objections to ISDS by arbitration are about the details as opposed to the principles; I disagree. And, again, since there will be no post-finalisation consultation and public response I disagree that it makes sense to wait.

 

[Uther]

So, May wants to stay in the EU, and leave the ECHR. Interesting.

 

[Mr Jack]

So, May wants to stay in the EU, and leave the ECHR. Interesting.

May or BoJo as our next Prime Minister - it's not a welcoming choice, is it?

 

[Narj]

So, May wants to stay in the EU, and leave the ECHR. Interesting.

I think she's another politician putting career before their own personal convictions tbh.

 

[Mulder]

I think she's another politician putting career before their own personal convictions tbh.

Yep. She was being touted as a backer of the leave campaign but I reckon was told by Cameron her career was basically over if she did so.

 

[Uther]

I think she's another politician putting career before their own personal convictions tbh.

Yes she certainly sounds like she would rather be voting out!

''Mrs May said the UK's membership of the EU "caused problems" and it was "nonsense" that the country could not go it alone, but she thought the country was still better off in the union.''

 

[Outcast]

Theresa May has blasted Remain campaign scaremongering as “nonsense“, admitting “of course” Britain could cope outside the EU:

Reverse Psychology now ?

 

[Zethor]

The 55 are at the back of here. Together with evidence around how our % of votes in the council, our representation in the eu parliament and our influence in the commission have all been eroded.

Your one piece of evidence that we have influence (which is taken from EU officials themselves, so I wouldn't count it for much) is written by Simon Hix, who has himself quoted (Google it):



He seems to get the issue here

You said:

We are not influential in the EU. You can point to reports about "connections" but as has been discussed in this thread and elsewhere the EU spins on a Franco-German axis. Did you see the graphic posted earlier about the difference between being in EFTA and being in the EU? I'm guessing not.

Now you are changing the tune from no influece to eroded influence and you back that up with a Brexit campaign pdf. Ok..

The Swiss get to negotiate their own trade deals, which is possibly why they've been very successful in doing so in recent years. The free movement referendum is still up in the air, the EU has put the talks on hold because they know it will help the UK's case to leave. If your argument is "well the EU will just bully us to accept stuff regardless" then great reason to want to stay.

As you saw in the ONS numbers, Britain is not hampered by the EU and our services exports keep growing. Do you know what amazing trade deals the Swiss currently have out of EFTA? Again I suggest to consider the answer before posting the first Google link.

China is contracting? Nah, it grew 6.9% last year. As you say, always good to check facts before posting.

We are discussing Britain's service export market in China. The one you claimed is growing the fastest and which is actually contracting according to the ONS. Nice try tho.

By the way, you said you work in the City? I find it odd that someone working in the City would think services sales in China are growing fast considering it has gone through the worst stock market crash in its history. What do you actually do?

And again rather than focusing on the actual issue here (i.e. the EU being only 30% of our services exports and growing more slowly than the US and the other countries I posted over a 10 year period) you're just trying to focus the debate on pointless sub plots.

It's actually 36% in 2014 and when you add EFTA it's 45%. Leaving the free trade block has the potential to affect a huge part of our services exports and there are no alternatives, no other possible clients for them in the short term.

 

[Mr Jack]

This rather sums it up for me:

The EU gives us a host of benefits and the position of all of them is utterly uncertain if we Brexit.

 

[b0redj0rd]

^^^ lol.

 

[Skunkworks]