Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (April Poll)

[Skunkworks]

Are there any good reasons to leave yet?

Still being a democracy in 20 years.

 

[SlyReaper]

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/...ever-done-for-us-video?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Everything they listed are things we had long before the ECHR existed. Most of them invented here!

 

[Jokester]

I disagree, the Norway option is certainly an appealing alternative to full EU membership. The countries who have taken this option seem to agree with this too.

This is basic stuff Fox, free trade agreement's are an option, it may even be possible to negotiate it without freedom of movement, though I'm sure if the EU wanted access to the UK labour pool the UK would agree to accepting movement of UK citizens to the EU if such a thing is a major positive for the EU.

 

[Harlequin]

we actually were the driving force behind the ECHR as we had those things ourselves (although in various different laws);

the issue though is the way they are abused - a fundamental look needs to be made at the European courts

 

[kindai]

we actually were the driving force behind the ECHR as we had those things ourselves (although in various different laws);

the issue though is the way they are abused - a fundamental look needs to be made at the European courts

Oh look, more fundamental change which will get watered down and not be legally binding so.. nothing will happen

The only fundamental change the EU needs is Brexit to happen, the EU to collapse and die and a new agreement/organization set up between economies of a similar standing.

 

[[TW]Fox]

This is basic stuff Fox, free trade agreement's are an option,

Of course they are - nobody would dispute otherwise.

Don't confuse 'free trade agreement' with 'tariff free trade' though, which I suspect you are doing. Most if not all 'free trade agreements' still contain tariffs.

it may even be possible to negotiate it without freedom of movement, though I'm sure if the EU wanted access to the UK labour pool the UK would agree to accepting movement of UK citizens to the EU if such a thing is a major positive for the EU.

Of course its possible to have a free trade agreement without freedom of movement. Look at NAFTA - the North Atlantic Free Trade Agreement, of which both Mexico and the US are signatories - yet no free movement.

Free trade doesn't mean free of cost.

 

[Skunkworks]

The only fundamental change the EU needs is Brexit to happen, the EU to collapse and die and a new agreement/organization set up between economies of a similar standing.

This would be my prefered outcome.

 

[Jokester]

Don't confuse 'free trade agreement' with 'tariff free trade' though, which I suspect you are doing. Most if not all 'free trade agreements' still contain tariffs..

Pretty much all FTA work towards eliminating tariffs over a period of time though.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Pretty much all FTA work towards eliminating tariffs over a period of time though.

How's that working out for NAFTA?

 

[Jokester]

How's that working out for NAFTA?

Quite well it seems.

The goal of NAFTA was to eliminate barriers to trade and investment between the U.S., Canada and Mexico. The implementation of NAFTA on January 1, 1994 brought the immediate elimination of tariffs on more than one-half of Mexico's exports to the U.S. and more than one-third of U.S. exports to Mexico. Within 10 years of the implementation of the agreement, all U.S.-Mexico tariffs would be eliminated except for some U.S. agricultural exports to Mexico that were to be phased out within 15 years.[10] Most U.S.-Canada trade was already duty-free. NAFTA also sought to eliminate non-tariff trade barriers and to protect the intellectual property rights on traded products.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

 

[[TW]Fox]

Happy to concede that point then

 

[helpimcrap]

Saw this and thought it interesting as it's about the EU referendum:

"Here are a few things the EU did to our economy. You can decide if they were good or bad but I know where my vote is going: for freedom.

Jaguar Land Rover stops making its Defender in the UK because of EU laws on fuel emissions. It is now set to be built abroad outside the EU.

In 2007 the Peugeot factory in Ryton, Coventry closed down (2,300 job losses) and moved to Slovakia with the help of £78m EU funding.

Britain's remaining ferry service to Scandinavia (DFDS Harwich to Esbjerg) ended in 2014 after 140 years service because of an EU Directive.

'3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules.

Before the UK entered the EEC/EU, unemployment stood at 2.6%. It is now 5.6% (1.85 million - May, 2015).

Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are thriving because they are not encumbered by Euro bailout costs and extortionate EU membership fees.

There were 25 EU Free Trade Agreements in force in 2012 while the Swiss (non-EU) had independently negotiated 26.

The EU's Landfill Directive has been responsible for some councils ending their weekly bin collections.

EU specified light bulbs cost 500% more than filament bulbs. Some people complain that the EU specified light bulbs produce a lesser quality of light and cfl's contain mercury, a poisonous neurotoxin and phosphors. Health issues affecting those that suffer from light sensitivity.

It's been suggested that VAT on domestic fuels should be cut from 5% to zero. But 5% is the minimum allowed under EU law.

Less than 10% of Britain's GDP represents trade with the EU yet Brussels regulations afflict 100% of the UK economy.

Britain will pay £100 million a year more to the European budget over the next five years. (Telegraph: 03/12/2014)

Article 42 3. gives the EU the power to begin the process of standardising the military forces of the member states via the EDA.

Britain receives just 49p of every £1 paid to the European Union. (Sunday Express & Business for Britain, 12/07/2015)

TTIP will undermine data privacy by making it easier for companies to gain access to individuals’ personal details for commercial purposes.

EU Commission will block public access to all documents related to TTIP negotiations for 30 years. (EU/US negotiator Ignacio Garcia Bercero)

TTIP will downgrade food safety rules (including restrictions on GMOs), regulations on the use of toxic chemicals and data protection laws.

TTIP will allow corporations to sue the UK under the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) clause.

European crime gangs are operating here with impunity due to EU open borders. Gov't estimates there are 13k trafficking victims in the UK.

The UK may withdraw from the obligations of any (EU) treaty under Articles 56,65,66,67 of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.

The EU isn't in the top five issues people are most concerned about. But those five issues are affected by the EU - like immigration.

HoC library's 13% UK laws made in Brussels figure doesn't include EU reg's which are transposed into law without passing through parliament.

The House of Commons library say 13.3% of UK laws now come from Brussels. European Commissioner Viviane Reding says it's 70%.

Our future does not depend on our membership of the European Union, it rests on our abilities to progress in the world outside of it.

Net EU contributions together with the adverse impact on business here of EU regulations will cost the UK more than £20billion in 2015.

There's no economic benefit in the UK remaining in the EU. EU regulations cost our businesses alone over £9.4bn, according to the BIS.

There was NO 'free movement' for Brits to the EU (EEC) before we joined in '73. Yet we lived, studied, worked, holidayed and retired there.

The EU is NOT "Europe". It's 56% of Europe's countries, 68% of the continent's population and just 43% of its land mass.

UK membership of EU: "Perhaps surprisingly, it's virtually impossible to find hard proof of any net benefit" — Carsten Volkery, Der Spiegel

UK has LOWER GDP ppp per head than:

Australia
Canada
HK
Iceland
Norway
Singapore
Switzerland
Taiwan
USA

Countries THRIVE outside the EU!

Britain’s future outside is bright, while the #EU is anti-democratic, anti-growth, and holding Britain back | via E21 http://t.co/fuFrsSuDHs

EU commits €267.6m for Denmark, €129.6m Estonia, €284.6m Germany, €172.9m for Sweden to boost fisheries & aquaculture. Nothing for the UK.

Top importers into the EU, by proportion of total EU imports:

18% China
12% USA
11% Russia

None have Free Trade Agreements with the EU!

'Britain had regular manufacturing & service trade surpluses with the rest of W Europe before joining the EEC (EU) in 1973' — Lewis Abbott

Well over a third of EU citizens reaching the UK in the year to March 2015 (39%) had no job arranged prior to their arrival here. ONS

In the past four quarters the EU exported £84.935bn more goods to the UK than we did to it. The EU cannot afford to stop trading with us!

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th biggest economies can survive and prosper outside the EU. So can the 5th: the UK.

Switzerland, Canada, South Africa, Chile, Mexico and South Korea have free trade agreements with the EU. So would the UK when we leave it.

UK Net Contributions to the EU budget:

£11.3bn 2015 (OBR estimate)
£11.0bn 2014
£ 8.6bn 2013
£ 8.5bn 2012
£ 8.1bn 2011
£ 7.4bn 2010

'Britain's pro-EU carmakers say plants not at risk from 'Brexit' http://t.co/AmjfOUJt5K

Claims Brexit would be disastrous for trade are 'highly misleading' - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...sastrous-for-trade-are-highly-misleading.html

Elected MEPs cannot initiate legislation, propose legislation or even repeal legislation. All that is done by the unelected EU Commission.

http://economics21.org/commentary/brexit-yes-please "

 

[[TW]Fox]

Jaguar Land Rover stops making its Defender in the UK because of EU laws on fuel emissions. It is now set to be built abroad outside the EU.

That's not quite the full story is it? It was a 68 year old design - it was time for it to end because it was becoming ever more unsuitable in the modern age.

In 2007 the Peugeot factory in Ryton, Coventry closed down (2,300 job losses) and moved to Slovakia with the help of £78m EU funding.

This is my favourite - why was the Peugeot factory even here in the first place? Oh right, because we were in the EU.

Britain's remaining ferry service to Scandinavia (DFDS Harwich to Esbjerg) ended in 2014 after 140 years service because of an EU Directive.

Gosh how vague. A magic EU Directive on not running ferries? What was actually the case is that the ship used was very old yet the route didn't generate enough funds to justify its replacement. It was a matter of time before something caused this old ferry to stop being economically viable - it just so happened that the first thing to come along was some EU emissions laws. If it wasn't that it'd have been something else.

'3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules.

We don't have any British car manufacturers. We have foreign car manufacturers who, largely because of the EU, have factories here.

Before the UK entered the EEC/EU, unemployment stood at 2.6%. It is now 5.6% (1.85 million - May, 2015).

Probably one of the most hilarious misuse of statistics so far in this thread.

Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are thriving because they are not encumbered by Euro bailout costs and extortionate EU membership fees.

I think all 3 of these countries would be rather miffed to have 'the fact they are not part of the EU bailout and EU membership fees' listed as the sole reason why they are thriving economies!

btw, we didn't contribute to the Euro bailout anyway. Further btw, Iceland's economy is 'thriving' less than ours.

There were 25 EU Free Trade Agreements in force in 2012 while the Swiss (non-EU) had independently negotiated 26.

So what?

The EU's Landfill Directive has been responsible for some councils ending their weekly bin collections.

So what does this directive do?

The Directive's overall aim is "to prevent or reduce as far as possible negative effects on the environment, in particular the pollution of surface water, groundwater, soil and air, and on the global environment, including the greenhouse effect, as well as any resulting risk to human health, from the landfilling of waste, during the whole life-cycle of the landfill"

Gosh, how awful. Nasty EU.

It's been suggested that VAT on domestic fuels should be cut from 5% to zero. But 5% is the minimum allowed under EU law.

'It's been suggested'? So what? It's been suggested that we abolish fuel duty too and it's also been suggested that we nuke North Korea.

Less than 10% of Britain's GDP represents trade with the EU yet Brussels regulations afflict 100% of the UK economy.

lol

European crime gangs are operating here with impunity due to EU open borders. Gov't estimates there are 13k trafficking victims in the UK.

If they are crime gangs, arrest them for committing crimes. If you can't do this, then what reason would you have to stop them at the border anyway!?

You get the idea...

 

[sityeuropa]

Trade deals, little extra taxes here and there.

For me it comes down to sovereignty, being able to self govern. The British public to have control over the laws we have to obey by.

This is the one and only point I need. The rest we will work it out. I can sell goods to anyone anywhere, I'm sure businesses will find a way also.

 

[helpimcrap]

I don't know how accurate it is but probably on a par with the remain campaign. I just thought it was an interesting view.

 

[[TW]Fox]

The British public to have control over the laws we have to obey by.

We don't have a direct democracy system, so Brexit won't give you or me direct control over the laws we have to obey.

 

[bayo000]

Trade deals, little extra taxes here and there.

For me it comes down to sovereignty, being able to self govern. The British public to have control over the laws we have to obey by.

This is the one and only point I need. The rest we will work it out. I can sell goods to anyone anywhere, I'm sure businesses will find a way also.

Do you? I can't remember ever being asked to vote on a new law I want to obey.

Either in or out at the end of the day, it will be down to a group of politicians to make laws. And we will complain and argue about those politicians and laws just like we do now. IMO pretty much all the laws that affect and benefit me as employee and consumer the most come from EU and I doubt UK government would implement half of them if it wasn't for EU.

 

[sityeuropa]

We don't have a direct democracy system, so Brexit won't give you or me direct control over the laws we have to obey.

I hate when people argue this it really irritates me.

If any laws or decisions are so out of touch, the public get the chance every five years to tell them what we think about it.

Please don't compare this with some unelected pen pushers not familiar with our way of life that decide on a whim what they think is best for us.

At least our local MP's who decide on our laws are familiar with British customs.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Please don't compare this with some unelected pen pushers not familiar with our way of life that decide on a whim what they think is best for us.

This isn't actually how it works.

 

[sityeuropa]

This isn't actually how it works.

I would rather local MP's who know how we live and understand the concerns of our communities vote on our laws than Euro representatives who have never even set foot in the UK.

It amazes me how people can be OK with this.

This is the only reason I personally need and by far the most important to me.