Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (April Poll)

[datalol-jack]

Most of the out people don't have an issue with someone they didn't vote for governing. Their main issue is that their own vote is equal to that of Polish or Bulgarian. A 'True Brit' equal to an Eastern European in terms of voting power or job opportunities? Outrageous!

*chokes on tea* I say!

Or would that be two pints of lager and a packet of crisps?

 

[PlacidCasual]

I would suggest the lack of true decisiveness that would come through our continued EU involvement is the problem rather than the concept of foreigners having democratic rights.

If a UK Government acts in a way we dislike we can replace them but we can't replace the EU if we dislike the majority opinion. The amalgamation of each countries sovereignty gives greater voice to corpratist pan national voices like big companies or NGO's than it does voters. Being outside the EU gives UK voters more voice and makes our MP's and courts responsible. I know who to blame and I stand a chance of doing something about it, if a majority of EU Governments is behind my upset they can merrily ignore me so long as it doesn't upset their electoral positions.

I never wanted to be in a 27 country federal Europe, I've never been asked if it's what I wanted, I've never had a vote on the matter and have consistently voted against parties that took us further in without asking. We have a chance to escape I'm hoping we take it.

 

[scorza]

Most of the out people don't have an issue with someone they didn't vote for governing. Their main issue is that their own vote is equal to that of Polish or Bulgarian. A 'True Brit' equal to an Eastern European in terms of voting power or job opportunities? Outrageous!

Actually a Bulgarian vote is worth nearly twice as much as a UK inhabitant's vote. As I posted earlier Bulgaria gets 1 MEP for every ~450,000 inhabitants, the UK gets 1 MEP for every ~830,000 inhabitants.

 

[Woden]

Actually a Bulgarian vote is worth nearly twice as much as a UK inhabitant's vote. As I posted earlier Bulgaria gets 1 MEP for every ~450,000 inhabitants, the UK gets 1 MEP for every ~830,000 inhabitants.

But we don't vote on EU matters, we elect people to do that for us.

The UK gets 73 MEPs, Bulgaria just 18.

 

[scorza]

But we don't vote on EU matters, we elect people to do that for us.

The UK gets 73 MEPs, Bulgaria just 18.

Population of UK is ~65m (officially)
Population of Bulgaria is ~7m

Even on the European Council, the Prime Minster of the UK's vote is worth exactly the same as the head of Bulgaria.

 

[Zethor]

Actually a Bulgarian vote is worth nearly twice as much as a UK inhabitant's vote. As I posted earlier Bulgaria gets 1 MEP for every ~450,000 inhabitants, the UK gets 1 MEP for every ~830,000 inhabitants.

Actually, all of the major EU decisions are mainly influeced by Germany, France and Britain. Bulgarians don't matter much, it's all about finanicial strength. This explains why English political decisions usually revolve around what's best for London.

For you, scorza, Britain is represented by white people with British parents who speak with British accents.

For me, Britain is.. everyone. White or black or brown, native or immigrant, they are all part of the British 'hive', they all contribute in some form or another, they are all the cogs and wheels that keep the British machine running.

 

[datalol-jack]

I would suggest the lack of true decisiveness that would come through our continued EU involvement is the problem rather than the concept of foreigners having democratic rights.

More rapid decision making would require giving up vetoes and unanimous voting clauses for a lot of things. Would you be prepared to do that? The current subsidiarity idea is, contrary to the critical momentum atm, to leave as much control as close to the members' parliaments as possible; and we played a significant part in keeping this arrangement over the years. Hence the speed and the arrangements that we do have.

I never wanted to be in a 27 country federal Europe, I've never been asked if it's what I wanted, I've never had a vote on the matter and have consistently voted against parties that took us further in without asking. We have a chance to escape I'm hoping we take it.

Fair enough, however I find this Leave assertion rather peculiar.

How old are you (asking purely for the historical details of our ascension)/is this your first referendum on Europe? I realise some people oppose all things EU on personal principle, but if that was not our original intention re political institutions of the EU, why did we depart from our EFTA agreement, and join the precursor to the EU, the EEC? Didn't Wilson campaign on this specifically, given the course and the conditions of membership as they stood at the time? His speeches certainly didn't attempt to hoodwink anyone.

"But whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government's purpose derives above all from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can—and indeed must—play our full part in it.

In full: http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1967/may/02/the-european-economic-community-british. I hope the Hansard isn't considered an EU shill yet. We were certainly much keener on the whole thing during the Cold War, that's for sure. Obviously Thatcher/Major years offered a Tory take on this, but they didn't takes us out either, as things developed. And the voters gave all three their support in a general election, and on the issue; it wasn't unanimous support, but the majority did.

Or, like Lawson, would you prefer to love Europe and destroy its institutions every twenty years or so, to give people a fresh buzz? I think that would be counter-productive and more inefficient, tbh.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Even on the European Council, the Prime Minster of the UK's vote is worth exactly the same as the head of Bulgaria.

Are you suggesting it should be different? T

 

[b0redj0rd]

Are you suggesting it should be different? T

I personally think it should be contribution based. We pay a huge amount more than Bulgaria so why shouldn't we have a greater say?

At the moment we have approx. 10% voting power, which diminishes the more new members join the EU. When Turkey joins in xx years, they'll have more voting power than the UK despite not contributing anything since the inception of the EU.

 

[scorza]

Actually, all of the major EU decisions are mainly influeced by Germany, France and Britain. Bulgarians don't matter much, it's all about finanicial strength. This explains why English political decisions usually revolve around what's best for London.

For you, scorza, Britain is represented by white people with British parents who speak with British accents.

For me, Britain is.. everyone. White or black or brown, native or immigrant, they are all part of the British 'hive', they all contribute in some form or another, they are all the cogs and wheels that keep the British machine running.

Not true - the colour of someone's skin is irrelevant. I judge people based on who they are not what they are. Whereas you seem to have this hatred of white men. Self-loathing?

Are you suggesting it should be different? T

You're damn right it should be different. The bigger, more powerful a country is the greater say it should have in the running of the EU - I'm not talking about the sneaky way France gains influence, but rather in open, transparent, democratic terms.

 

[Skunkworks]

Most of the out people don't have an issue with someone they didn't vote for governing. Their main issue is that their own vote is equal to that of Polish or Bulgarian. A 'True Brit' equal to an Eastern European in terms of voting power or job opportunities? Outrageous!

For you, scorza, Britain is represented by white people with British parents who speak with British accents.

For me, Britain is.. everyone. White or black or brown, native or immigrant, they are all part of the British 'hive', they all contribute in some form or another, they are all the cogs and wheels that keep the British machine running.

I wonder what you could possibly be implying!

 

[datalol-jack]

Thought Andrew Graham was going to voice an opinion, and he did.

"Britain’s values were founded in Europe – how can we leave?"
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-europe-how-can-we-leave-law-freedom-religion

A nice, positive answer to Grayling's summary of Leave's platform delta posted some pages back.

 

[Roar87]

But we don't vote on EU matters, we elect people to do that for us.

The UK gets 73 MEPs, Bulgaria just 18.

So we get 1 MEP per 890k people, Bulgaria get's 1 per 388k. Gee that seems fair.

* didn't see already posted. Point stands, how can people even defend it as fair?

 

[[TW]Fox]

So we get 1 MEP per 890k people, Bulgaria get's 1 per 388k. Gee that seems fair.

* didn't see already posted. Point stands, how can people even defend it as fair?

What do you want to do, give small countries almost no representation or have a 100,000 capacity football stadium for the EU parliament to give everyone an exactly 'fair' proportion of MEP's per capita?

73 seems fine, how many more UKIP'ers do we want to pay to vote no to everything?

 

[bayo000]

You're damn right it should be different. The bigger, more powerful a country is the greater say it should have in the running of the EU - I'm not talking about the sneaky way France gains influence, but rather in open, transparent, democratic terms.

All is well then. Germany is bigger than UK and France is bigger and stronger so going by general feeling that they run EU I don't see reason you don't like how EU is run.

 

[PlacidCasual]

In response to datalol-jack I'm not old enough to have voted in 1975 and I voted against Major, Blair and Brown none of whom made (from memory) manifesto commitments to drag us into Maastricht, Nice or Lisbon treaties.

I wouldn't suggest giving up one veto I'd give them all up along with the keys to the club. We can huff and puff as much as we like but even when we offer up £7Bn we get an empty promise on reform (hat tip A.Blair). When we threaten to leave we get a homeopathic renegotiation. If British citizens ever want to do something differently to the EU we can kiss goodbye any hope of doing it if it is a an EU "competence" (never has the word been so misused). The renegotiation also makes a commitment on the UK not to stand in the way of further Euro integration, the scope of the Euro will grow and our cherished vetos and opt outs will be for nought, just like the transaction tax veto.

I wish to leave so i can better hold my Government to account so I can defenestrate the incompetent and if we so choose do what we wish not that granted by the goodwill of 27 rather disparate and different friends.

 

[Roar87]

What do you want to do, give small countries almost no representation or have a 100,000 capacity football stadium for the EU parliament to give everyone an exactly 'fair' proportion of MEP's per capita?

73 seems fine, how many more UKIP'ers do we want to pay to vote no to everything?

Fair representation, less MEP's if required. 1 per million rounded up would seem a pretty straight forward way of doing it.

 

[datalol-jack]

Well, tbf, we have about 9 times greater population than Bulgaria, and just over 4 times their MEPs, giving us a representative rate in the EUP which is 5 times greater than that of Bulgaria.

The details of the revised representation formula are interesting, but the ultimate effect is that we have greater influence in line with our greater population; in fact, the core-EU always had a proportional advantage over the newer members; but if you consider how the voting blocks align regionally, then the picture and the formula produces a very balanced result.

But let's assume the hypothetical ascension of Turkey after XXX years; what happens then? Well, they would have a decent chunk of MEPs, but in terms of regional block-voting power they will be quite isolated, unless they can find a way to smooth out relationships with Greece, Cyprus, the Balkans, etc; and even then the core-EU remains in control, really.

A better proportionality rule can be devised, yes; but if you are not willing to rule out the very unlikely event of Turkey joining, why are you ruling out the more likely event of the subsequent EUP reform? From what I understand, the formula was last revised post-expansion; why not again?

 

[Sankari]

Why you want in to an unelected, unaccountable and selfish political idea is beyond me?

The House of Lords would like a word with you. Also the entire Royal Family.

 

[Burnsy2023]

I personally think it should be contribution based. We pay a huge amount more than Bulgaria so why shouldn't we have a greater say?

At the moment we have approx. 10% voting power, which diminishes the more new members join the EU. When Turkey joins in xx years, they'll have more voting power than the UK despite not contributing anything since the inception of the EU.

So you're saying we should be able to buy power in the EU?

You're damn right it should be different. The bigger, more powerful a country is the greater say it should have in the running of the EU - I'm not talking about the sneaky way France gains influence, but rather in open, transparent, democratic terms.

So what metrics should that be based on?