Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

  • Remain a member of the European Union

    Votes: 794 45.1%

  • Leave the European Union

    Votes: 965 54.9%
  • Total voters
    1,759
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Avenged7Fold said:
Haha, yeah good luck with that point system, it'l never happen.
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you can't really say 'never' in this context... vote could feasibly go either way and there are no certainties re: post brexit deals - the idea that we'd definitely end up with some sort of Switzerland (pick n mix) or Norway(EEA) solution and be forced to accept free movement anyway in the event of an out vote isn't certain at all, especially if one of the large drivers for the out vote in the first place is the immigration issue

George Hincapie said:
I know :(

I am hoping for a moment of clarity; thus far it has evaded me.
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have a browse through here for a start:

allegedly impartial
https://fullfact.org/

'OUT'
http://leave.eu/

'IN'
http://www.strongerin.co.uk/
 
One thing that really annoys me is that neither side can offer facts. You would have thought wouldn't you that the government would be totally transparent in all its meetings with other heads of state and EU representatives and there would be a minuted record (even summarised) of what discussions were had and the conclusions thereof.

These are not confidential cabinet papers with the 30 year or 100 year disclosure rule. They are negotiations for the British people carried out by the UK government.

Yet all anyone involved can say is that if we leave, the EU 'may do this' or 'may decide that'.

We have a multitude of professional pundits, the IMF, the BoE etc. who all say the same, "we really don't know what will happen, but this is the most likely option".

Then the negotiators in chief DC and GO who remark that we will lose 820,000 jobs, that appears accurate, it has two numerals and a few zeroes, more accurate than a million or two, one may surmise, but again a complete guesstimate. Opinions on every negative thing that they can think of, but no data, no records, nothing al all on the record.

Then we have the world politicians, discreetly paraded to say Great Britain is nothing outside of the EU, we would really struggle to find anyone who would sell us anything and we would be pounded by tariffs to boot.

Until someone gets off their backside and tells us some FACTS, I am out.
 
Us versus them mentality. :( Surely we are all in this together?

When does it stop?

Screw scotland and wales, because I'm English? Or should I want nothing to do with the north because I am down south? What about if I don't care about what happens in cornwall because I am in London? What, they have problems in East London? Tough luck, I'm not going to help them out, I'm from West London.

I get that there are issues that people have with the current system. I just think that going it alone is the best thing is not a helpful mindset for so many problems that we face.
 
Facts are boring, and subject to the woes of time, no-one knows what will happen next month, let along the next century.

Who cares, just vote however which way you please with whatever logic you desire.
 
chef-borjan said:
Us versus them mentality. :( Surely we are all in this together?

When does it stop?

Screw scotland and wales, because I'm English? Or should I want nothing to do with the north because I am down south? What about if I don't care about what happens in cornwall because I am in London? What, they have problems in East London? Tough luck, I'm not going to help them out, I'm from West London.

I get that there are issues that people have with the current system. I just think that going it alone is the best thing is not a helpful mindset for so many problems that we face.
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Electric fences and a watchtower here, I'm looking after number one ;) I'm no Liberal, I have realised mankind is tribal since primary school :)
 
nkata said:
One thing that really annoys me is that neither side can offer facts. You would have thought wouldn't you that the government would be totally transparent in all its meetings with other heads of state and EU representatives and there would be a minuted record (even summarised) of what discussions were had and the conclusions thereof.

These are not confidential cabinet papers with the 30 year or 100 year disclosure rule. They are negotiations for the British people carried out by the UK government.

Yet all anyone involved can say is that if we leave, the EU 'may do this' or 'may decide that'.

We have a multitude of professional pundits, the IMF, the BoE etc. who all say the same, "we really don't know what will happen, but this is the most likely option".
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I'm not sure it's entirely realistic though to expect to know with any degree of certainty what the outcome of negotiations with multiple partners will be in advance. I'd agree that facts and certainty would be much more helpful for making decisions and indeed if we could rely on all involved not to succumb to tempting hyperbole that would be nice too.

However what you appear to be asking for is that we get a guarantee of outcome with no chance of any of the parties amending it subsequently based on their own circumstances. The EU may decide to do this or that depending on how the vote goes, just as the UK may decide to take course A or course B depending on how the vote goes - all parties will be looking for the best outcome for their own interests and it's very difficult for anyone to say with certainty precisely what will happen based on events where there are both independent and interdependent variables and no precedent to rely upon.
 
chef-borjan said:
I just think that going it alone is the best thing is not a helpful mindset for so many problems that we face.
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But we won't be going it alone, yes we will have a little bit more shipping paperwork to sort out, but most importantly we will have full control of our country back so we can branch out and start trading directly with the rest of the world.
 
nkata said:
We have a multitude of professional pundits, the IMF, the BoE etc. who all say the same, "we really don't know what will happen, but this is the most likely option".
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These are not "pundit" predictions. A pundit gives your their prediction of the future based on no more or less than their expertise. The predictions by the IMF, the OBR, the Treasury, the LSE and the NIESR are based on models of what will happen. These models are based partly on economic theory, partly empirically derived, and fed with factual data and they all agree that Brexit will damage the UK economy.

You talk about facts, but you can't have facts about the future, you can only have predictions based on more or less evidence. The predictions with the best evidence behind them are pretty unanimous - Brexit will harm the UK economy. Putting an exact figure on the level of harm is pretty foolhardy but expecting a different outcome than economic harm from Brexit requires you to have a reckless disregard for evidence.

MookJong said:
But we won't be going it alone, yes we will have a little bit more shipping paperwork to sort out, but most importantly we will have full control of our country back so we can branch out and start trading directly with the rest of the world.
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We can already trade directly with the rest of the world. Post-Brexit the terms that we will do so on will be no better than they are now - and worse in some cases - and any future agreements we make that would allow better trade terms will involve surrendering some of this "full control" you're so anxious about.
 
Mr Jack said:
These are not "pundit" predictions. A pundit gives your their prediction of the future based on no more or less than their expertise. The predictions by the IMF, the OBR, the Treasury, the LSE and the NIESR are based on models of what will happen. These models are based partly on economic theory, partly empirically derived, and fed with factual data and they all agree that Brexit will damage the UK economy.

You talk about facts, but you can't have facts about the future, you can only have predictions based on more or less evidence. The predictions with the best evidence behind them are pretty unanimous - Brexit will harm the UK economy. Putting an exact figure on the level of harm is pretty foolhardy but expecting a different outcome than economic harm from Brexit requires you to have a reckless disregard for evidence.
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Punditry relies on modelling whether it is in someones head or on a main frame computer. I do know how modelling works and 'theory' and 'empirically derived' leaves scope for potential error margins to be allowed to creep in. I think that all such statements should have a margin of error or a health warning stated before being accepted

I realise that facts have to have occurred and no one can know facts about the future. However past facts that have been recorded should be in the public domain now that negotiations are complete. This may allow discussion and analysis to be more complete.
 
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