Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (March Poll)

[Skunkworks]

Don't let the people know what we've done or they might vote for someone else!

 

[Narj]

I am voting out. However the chances of the real vote being an out are about as remote as me wining the lottery.

A few weeks before the scaremongering will start with millions of us losing our jobs, the economy crashing, death of the NHS and the creme da la creme that house prices might fall.

The boomers are the biggest out campaigners (even though they got us into this) yet threaten their property wealth and the will be back in like a shot.

This is why people voting out need to grow some and prepare for short term pain. I'll be affected employment wise but am prepared to take the hit to ensure (a little better) democracy for my nieces and nephews.

 

[Destination]

Meh - well what do you do when you're not posting in this thread? The argument is constantly changing, like today's news (which the remainians think isn't important) that the UK spends £1.7bn on benefits for EEA migrants.

How much tax do we lift from eea migrants?
Serious question, as i have absolutely no idea.

 

[C64]

How much tax do we lift from eea migrants?
Serious question, as i have absolutely no idea.

Very little I'd imagine seeing as most of them are doing low paid work with in work benefits costing more than the tax they're paying.
The figures are doctored anyway.

We already have far too many business's being subsidized by tax credits and housing benefit and we want to open the doors for a huge chunk of the 500 million more to claim it for every job going ? we must be mad.

It's going to lead to a worse standard of living for everyone in the long term and before long that pension age will creep up even higher.

You always hear the argument that economic migrants add value but how do they if they can claim more back from the state than they pay in tax each week.

The problem is unskilled / low skilled immigration is a drain on society not a gain.

So I am 100% voting out we cannot afford to subsidize 1/3 of low paid europeans.

 

[marc2003]

2 thoughts rattling around in my head after reading recent threads/posts...

1) Given we all know how much old people like to vote, how do the remain campaign convince them to stay in given casual racism is one of their favourite hobbies?

2) What do mumsnet think?

 

[Mickie]

I'm an out vote, my work wont be affected if we pull out, we'll gain a lot of control of borders, laws, money.. I'd hope we'd do whats best for our own interests and not what the EU think we should do for Europe's best interest as a whole, but i don't find that very fair..

 

[estebanrey]

Very little I'd imagine seeing as most of them are doing low paid work with in work benefits costing more than the tax they're paying.
The figures are doctored anyway.

That's harsh, they're not doctored but they are highly selective/cherry picked. There are three main flaws with the "EU migrants make a positive contribution" argument.


1) The assumption they will leave before pension age. The mathematics are based on the idea they'll come here after school, so we don't pay for that, and leave before retiring meaning we only have to count the income tax/VAT they pay whilst they're here minus any benefits they take.

2) Any child born here is by definition British, so their schooling and medical costs aren't counted against migrants even though that cost wouldn't exist in the case of the migrant not coming here. So when an immigrant has a child, it's a six pointer for the left-leaning statisticians. Not only do they not count it as an impact of immigration but they add it to the costs of people 'born here' with whom they are contrasting.

3) Only tax receipts are considered. An economy is more than just tax receipts, it's a bigger system than that. If a Polish worker is getting paid £2,000 a month, they are paying £390 to the government in income tax/NI. Let's say they pay £500 a month living cheek-to-jowl in a 3 bed-semi with 8 other people, spend £400 a month on other bills, living expenses and disposable it means they can send £710 home each month. This means in total they are giving....

Paid to Government in Taxation (inc VAT)= £456
Paid to Business/Circulated in UK = £334
Total = £790

So of all the money they get, less than a quarter goes back to the State and more than that, almost a half is going straight out of our economy.

I know what chap at my work who, and fair play to him, has built a home with three wings in Poland just by working as a refuse truck driver for 4 years.

 

[rare]

Out before its too late. The EU project train rumbles on to the grave of individual democratic nation states.

 

[Insanties_birth]

That's harsh, they're not doctored but they are highly selective/cherry picked. There are three main flaws with the "EU migrants make a positive contribution" argument.


1) The assumption they will leave before pension age. The mathematics are based on the idea they'll come here after school, so we don't pay for that, and leave before retiring meaning we only have to count the income tax/VAT they pay whilst they're here minus any benefits they take.

2) Any child born here is by definition British, so their schooling and medical costs aren't counted against migrants even though that cost wouldn't exist in the case of the migrant not coming here. So when an immigrant has a child, it's a six pointer for the left-leaning statisticians. Not only do they not count it as an impact of immigration but they add it to the costs of people 'born here' with whom they are contrasting.

3) Only tax receipts are considered. An economy is more than just tax receipts, it's a bigger system than that. If a Polish worker is getting paid £2,000 a month, they are paying £390 to the government in income tax/NI. Let's say they pay £500 a month living cheek-to-jowl in a 3 bed-semi with 8 other people, spend £400 a month on other bills, living expenses and disposable it means they can send £710 home each month. This means in total they are giving....

Paid to Government in Taxation (inc VAT)= £456
Paid to Business/Circulated in UK = £334
Total = £790

So of all the money they get, less than a quarter goes back to the State and more than that, almost a half is going straight out of our economy.

I know what chap at my work who, and fair play to him, has built a home with three wings in Poland just by working as a refuse truck driver for 4 years.

Don't know if that's all true but if it is then it's a very sad state of affairs for all the economic arguments. It does make sense though, as much as people cry sensationalism at news websites there's going to be bias and trickery with numbers from most financial assesments depending on who funded them and what side they support.

People regularly believe there is no 'free lunch' so how can we be paying outward for the benefits of polish and others, outward for the EU fee's and be one of the richest countries in the EU (i.e. the others aren't paying as large membership fee's) and expect that to be coming back to us in such great numbers? Trade is the only answer and to be fair the EU will crash and burn so we can resume trade afterwards without EU laws if it does. Can't guarantee that though so maybe we would just be stuck with renegotiating back into the EU laws anyway.

 

[Narj]

..Nvm.. staying out of this thread.

 

[estebanrey]

Don't know if that's all true

....it's damn true!

 

[Chojin]

Out, in the imperative.

I value quality of life rather than GDP and pandering to a Federal Europe.

Being a member of the EU is a continual erosion of our sovereignty.

How long until the military forces of member states are unified into an EU Army and all under the control of one person... Merkel?

 

[Dave M]

I've also been extremely frustrated at the fact that some very talented and skilled people I know from outside the EU have had to sod off home thanks to visa issues whereas an EU resident can carry on doing a menial, minimum wage job no questions asked.

?????? Seriously

How are these two concerns related?

Tell me, why your government have to decline visa applications for ANY non EU citizen? If they are as worthy as you describe, tell me why they could not stay - this was entirely at the whim of your uk government, not the EU.

Xenophobia is irrational and hurts all people.

 

[Dave M]

I value quality of life rather than GDP and pandering to a Federal Europe.

I'm sorry but most eu states have a better quality of life than the uk.

Being a member of the EU is a continual erosion of our sovereignty.

what is sovereignty and how is it affecting your quality of life?

How long until the military forces of member states are unified into a EU Army and all under the control of one person... Merkel?

We can't agree on telecoms or energy and you expect our nukes to be converged - get real.

 

[dowie]

I'm sorry but most eu states have a better quality of life than the uk.

is this just a personal opinion or based on objective data?

AFAIK you'll likely find Austria, Germany higher... but you've also got a whole bunch of Central and Eastern European countries to consider.

 

[Narj]

..nvm. staying out of this thread.

 

[Chojin]

I'm sorry but most eu states have a better quality of life than the uk.

The UK is a member of the EU and you say that other states have a better quality of life. So why are we in the EU again?

what is sovereignty and how is it affecting your quality of life?

Sovereignty is massively important for our national security, which implicitly affects our quality of life.

We can't agree on telecoms or energy and you expect our nukes to be converged - get real.

Telecoms and energy sectors are heavily privatised, so of course agreements are difficult in those areas. I'm sure many member states would be easily enticed with a lower defence spending budget. It won't be a wholesale swap but will eventually make it economically unviable to have dedicated forces.

 

[estebanrey]

I'm sorry but most eu states have a better quality of life than the uk.

"Most"...source?

what is sovereignty and how is it affecting your quality of life?

Th ability to 100% affect your own laws, regulations, borders and customs, the latter question depends on where you live and the housing/job situation there.

We can't agree on telecoms or energy and you expect our nukes to be converged - get real.

An EU army isn't dependent on nukes. An ever closer military policy is more likely than not however.

 

[Boycey0211]

An EU army isn't dependent on nukes. An ever closer military policy is more likely than not however.

Won't happen any further than NATO and the UN peacekeeping force already allow, far too many secrets involved.

Having been involved with EU meets, events and wargames, I feel I can say from a personal point of view that its not going to happen any further than it is now.

 

[Dave M]

is this just a personal opinion or based on objective data?

AFAIK you'll likely find Austria, Germany higher... but you've also got a whole bunch of Central and Eastern European countries to consider.

Yes, various international quality of life indexes put us not only below northern europe and western europe in most areas but below southern europe on many (well, it is warmer) and below eastern europe in some.

Face it, polish go home rather than use the NHS.