It may looks like dodgy built on dodgy with some confidence intervals (to make it look pro) added on
Ugh, I know how people can be convinced of almost anything of you show even a poor graphic
Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (March Poll)
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It may looks like dodgy built on dodgy with some confidence intervals (to make it look pro) added on
Ugh, I know how people can be convinced of almost anything of you show even a poor graphic
Soldato
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Especially with a bit of verbal flannel. If it was presented to me I would ask them to change the colour scheme. Then ask some methodology questions.
Oh - nice attempt at grouping people who want to Leave the EU as racist, haven't seen that one used in a long time.
The word "sovereignty" is basically about who governs Britain? Our parliament and government in London, or the EU in Brussels.Examples? how about that a large part of our immigration policy is set by Brussels now - likewise agriculture and fishing.
For me the really important one is trade - the UK isn't allowed to make trade deals for itself, we've transferred that aspect of sovereignty to Brussels. This means that the EU negotiates trade deals with other countries like the USA and China on behalf of all member states. My contention is that our government on its own should be able to get better deals for Britain than the EU can negotiating for all 28 member states. Our economy is quite different to anything on the continent and amazingly diverse i.e. it isn't dominated by agriculture (as in the case of France) or manufacturing (as in the case of Germany) or tourism (as in the case of Spain). IMO you can look at our shockingly bad export figures (something like we export more to Belgium than we do to India) to realise that these trade deals the EU negotiates for us just aren't working for Britain.
This is one of the best posts in the last few pages in laying out the trade aspect. Any sales team in any business knows the importance of understanding your own products and how best to sell them into different markets. The idea that the EU can do this as a one size fits all seems very suspect to me indeed.
Who has better attraction? Huge market of ~500 millions or small (relatively) market of ~60 millions
And why do you think countries from other side of the world will prefer to deal with this small market at worse rates (it will have to be worse for them if it's to be better for UK) while still having the same import/ export costs?
Same goes for rest of EU. They will not trade with UK if they can get same product from from within the EU at lower cost.
I always feel the EFTA (Norway) option gets forgotten about. From what I can see, it would suit us perfectly. We get our fisheries back, we get free trade with services in the EU, business gets access to cheap labour, we can work abroad, we can retire to Spain, we can do our own trade deals. What is the benefit of being a full EU member instead of having a free Trade agreement via EFTA? To have a <12% say in how it is run? Doesn't seem worth it to me.
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
Soldato
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The size of a market is not the only thing affecting it's attractiveness as a market. Disposable income, rate of product replacement, adherence to common standards to name a few would all affect it's attractiveness.
Also why would we arbtrarily impose higher tariffs than the EU. Because we don't have an olive oil or tomato industry to protect from competitiion we may not be hit by tariffs applied in response.
If your rationale is correct how do any small countries get trade deals? Iceland, Switzerland, Norway, New Zealand, Australia et al can't all be outliers.
As for the EU why would our products immediately become more expensive? Are you suggesting both we and them would impose barriers to hurt each other, given the inward investment into the UK of EU Corporations you'd imagine they wouldn't want to strand assets behind tariffs having spend billions on them. Such corporations will be influential in trade negotiations.
The Remain camps assumption that every outcome will be the worst possible is highly hypcritical given it's criticisms of the Leave camps optimism.
Being a member of EFTA isn't free and we would have zero say in how the EU is run.
Soldato
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You'd have to contribute to the EU in order to me a EFTA member..... snipped above.
Anybody know how much Norway pays?
Nate
Anybody know how much Norway pays?
Nate
Estimates I've seen are £1Bn net saving assuming we replicate all current EU funding back to the UK.
I'd still take the EFTA option over full EU, even with the lack of say in the fewer laws that apply (relating to trade).
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We'll barely have a say anyway and when we do 'have a say', just flapping our gums doesn't mean much of others disagree. If we want turkey out will they not be allowed to join the EU? According to most in supporters the EU makes all the right decisions for the majority anyway and so would simply give friendly proposals at each step but us distancing ourselves helps prevent the biggest impacts of the ever closer union and lack of sovereignty.
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Soldato
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Turkey joining will require a treaty wont it? Westminster decides whether the UK signs up to that, so no you won't have a say. It will be decided for you.
Nate
http://order-order.com/2016/03/17/tory-fury-at-budgets-eu-stealth-vat/
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/03/17/the-vat-rise-in-the-budget-that-did-not-get-a-mention/
We were always told by Labour when signing away our powers of self government in successive treaties that taxation was a red line issue. It would remain a matter for national determination. Recently the UK Parliament was united in wanting to scrap the tax on feminine hygiene products, only to be told under EU law we were not allowed to.
On 4 June last year the European Court of Justice upheld a complaint against UK tax policy brought by the EU Commission. They argued successfully that the UK is not allowed to tax “energy saving materials” at just 5% but has to impose a full 20% VAT on them. A long list of green or energy saving products, including insulation, draught strip, central heating controls, hot water system controls, solar panels, wind and water turbines, ground and air source heat pumps, micro combined heat and power units and biomass boilers are all subject to our reduced rate and were all adjudged illegal.
The government has decided it therefore needs to impose extra VAT on all these goods, bringing in an additional £65 million a year from next year. I for one will be opposing this measure, as I do not wish to see energy conservation taxed in this way and object strongly to the erosion of our taxation powers by the European Court. It will be interesting to see who will vote with us in opposing this needless and undesirable tax increase.
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/03/17/the-vat-rise-in-the-budget-that-did-not-get-a-mention/
We were always told by Labour when signing away our powers of self government in successive treaties that taxation was a red line issue. It would remain a matter for national determination. Recently the UK Parliament was united in wanting to scrap the tax on feminine hygiene products, only to be told under EU law we were not allowed to.
On 4 June last year the European Court of Justice upheld a complaint against UK tax policy brought by the EU Commission. They argued successfully that the UK is not allowed to tax “energy saving materials” at just 5% but has to impose a full 20% VAT on them. A long list of green or energy saving products, including insulation, draught strip, central heating controls, hot water system controls, solar panels, wind and water turbines, ground and air source heat pumps, micro combined heat and power units and biomass boilers are all subject to our reduced rate and were all adjudged illegal.
The government has decided it therefore needs to impose extra VAT on all these goods, bringing in an additional £65 million a year from next year. I for one will be opposing this measure, as I do not wish to see energy conservation taxed in this way and object strongly to the erosion of our taxation powers by the European Court. It will be interesting to see who will vote with us in opposing this needless and undesirable tax increase.
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There isn't a chance of Turkey joining at the moment. Not only does it refuse to remove its death penalty which is a requirement of joining it's also given up vast swathes of secularism that made it a decent country. It's quickly approaching authoritarianism with freedom of the press being eroded remarkably quickly.
5 years ago it was a distant possibility, now it is an impossibility until they get back on track to democracy and embracing the rights which the EU enshrine.
5 years ago it was a distant possibility, now it is an impossibility until they get back on track to democracy and embracing the rights which the EU enshrine.
And yet the EU has just reached an agreement with Turkey that re-ignites their application to join...
Soldato
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The UK, and every existing EU member, still has the power of Veto over Turkey joining do they not? The UK loses this Veto upon leaving.
Which for many would rule out the Norway option of Free Trade with Free movement, after leaving..
Nate
Which for many would rule out the Norway option of Free Trade with Free movement, after leaving..
Nate
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Associate
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You really think the UK would stand in the way and use it's veto against the rest of Europe. They would get bribed to let Turkey in.
Soldato
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My point is that the Veto exists currently, not whether it would be wielded. Cyprus are already using theirs in this matter.
The UK has a veto it can assert, the decision for wielding it or not, falls to parliament. This is the body that all agree should be making these decisions for the UK
Nate
The UK has a veto it can assert, the decision for wielding it or not, falls to parliament. This is the body that all agree should be making these decisions for the UK
Nate
Soldato
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From 2014:
I wonder if he still feels the same.
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