Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?


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Like the Tories are going to negotiate a deal with the USA involving safeguards for the NHS :D

They are the advocates for getting rid of it and replacing with a private system.

... and they'll be held accountable for that at the next general election. I fail to see how we, the British people, can hold the EU officials responsible for such a deal to account.

This referendum is not about whether or not you like the current government - I for one don't and my post history will back that up. This is about whether you want to be governed from London, by a government directly elected by people living in Britain, or from Brussels, by a complex, opaque system of government that isn't really accountable to the European people. 3.2 million people have signed a petition against the TTIP deal, yet they are ploughing on regardless.
 
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What? You know TTIP won't magically come into force, right? It'd have to be approved by the EU Parliament AND the UK. Why veto something before it's finalised? It's clear we, and the EU, fully intend to protect the NHS/the scaremongering isn't based on reality. If the deal does somehow turn out to be rubbish, we can easily block it.


The tory party have already said "the NHS is still on the table".
But does Cameron want to block it? we'll have no say in it what so ever.

"Pressure grows for Cameron to veto TTIP if concerns over NHS are not addressed"

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/n...o-ttip-if-concerns-over-nhs-are-not-addressed
 
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Did you read the Full Fact link I furnished you with..?

This has been going on for ages. The EU hasn't mentioned the UK NHS.

There was a meeting with a leading cancer doctor yesterday. And he says the same. Cameron needs to veto this now.

If he doesn't then god(there isn't one) help your children. I've lived under the USA health system, and it sucks.

edit= I search each document for NHS\ UK health...nothing showed.
 
Coupled with the Gove blog the other day, this sums up my views, and just a good read for anyone interested.

The Leave campaign are the true radicals — they understand that the EU holds us back from being effective innovators

For me, in the end, it’s all about innovation. The European Union is bad at doing it, good at discouraging it, repeatedly sides with those who have vested interests in resisting it, and holds Britain back from achieving it.

This may not be a fashionable reason for voting to leave. Pollsters tell us that safety is the first wish of most voters, not exciting change, and it’s clear that both sides are playing to that rule book: one side arguing for us to take control by leaving, the other saying we are more secure if we stay in. But if history teaches us anything it is that enterprise is the father of peace, that innovation brings not just economic but ethical improvements: it demonstrably makes us kinder and safer as well as richer. There is no security in stagnation.

The leaders of the Leave campaign are mostly people who get this. Boris included, they are radicals who want to see change, who think the world is a vale of tears compared with what we could make it: people such as Douglas Carswell and Daniel Hannan, who want to create digital politics, to Frank Field, who thought the unthinkable about welfare reform, to Sir James Dyson who repeatedly causes creative destruction in established industries. Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Gove are Tory radicals, the two ministers who achieved most reform during the coalition years (and therefore incurred the most fury from the vested interests). The same would have been true of Owen Paterson if the vested interests had not managed to get him fired.

Sure, there may be some leavers who think out means a return to the 1950s, but the cautious conservatives are mostly on the Remain side, comically arguing, as Sajid Javid did yesterday, that the European Union is “a failing project, an overblown bureaucracy in need of wide-ranging and urgent reform” — but we’d better stay in all the same. The most powerful section of Mr Gove’s explosive manifesto, published on Saturday after he left the cabinet meeting, was this:

“The EU is an institution rooted in the past and is proving incapable of reforming to meet the big technological, demographic and economic challenges of our time. It was developed in the 1950s and 1960s and like other institutions which seemed modern then, from tower blocks to telexes, it is now hopelessly out of date. The EU tries to standardise and regulate rather than encourage diversity and innovation. It is an analogue union in a digital age.”

This is a serious charge, but fair. Europe is the only continent without significant economic growth since 2008. Italy’s GDP is lower than it was then; while India’s, China’s and even Ethiopia’s have roughly doubled. Then think about where the innovations that transform our lives are coming from: America and Asia, even Africa, more than from Europe.

There is a reason for this. The way Brussels works is fundamentally antithetical to innovation. It is top down, with regulation promulgated by officials behind closed doors in meetings with lobbyists. There are about 25,000 lobbyists in Brussels, representing the likes of Big Pharma and Big Green, and they are often in the room when rules get written that erect barriers to entry against irritating new competitors.

The way in which Volkswagen, using carbon-dioxide emissions as a cover, got the rules rewritten to suit diesel engines and discriminate against petrol engines, despite the fact that nitrogen oxide and particulate emissions from diesel were far higher and more dangerous, was only the most visible such scandal.

Sir James Dyson was amazed to find that Brussels set energy ratings for vacuum cleaners without testing them filled with dust, because this suited the German bagged vacuum cleaner manufacturers that he threatened: “Washing machines are tested with washing in them, cars are tested with people in them, and fridges are tested with food in them. But when it came to our request to test vacuum cleaners with dust in them, the big German block of manufacturers complained.”

Then there’s the need to get agreement among 28 member nations, which leads to agonisingly slow convergence on lowest common denominators. Look at how the use of biotechnology in agriculture,
with its proven ability to cut pesticide use, has been stymied by green politicians from certain implacably conservative countries.

Then there’s the “precautionary principle”, formally written into EU thinking and widely interpreted to mean that only the harms, not the benefits, of new technologies must be considered. This has repeatedly prevented the displacement of bad technologies by better ones.

In any case, as Mr Gove says, for innovation you need diversity. It is abundantly clear that trial and error is the story of almost all change. Different people come up with different ideas, try them out and many fail. Those that succeed then recombine their ideas with those of others to produce new ideas. The EU’s obsession with harmonisation militates against such experiment.

In encouraging innovation, there is a role for international standard-setting, for sure. But not at the level of one continent. Standards in finance, the internet, food or cars are increasingly decided at the global level. The EU is little more than a substation of the process and a foot-dragging one at that.

The EU says it favours innovation, but what it means by this is not encouraging a ferment of new start-ups à la Silicon Valley, but top-down spending of taxpayers’ money on pet projects in science and technology. Yet even here there is no justification for an officious European Commission. The flagship science collaborations of Europe are not confined to the EU at all: they include countries such as Israel, Switzerland and Turkey. CERN’s accelerator crosses an EU border.

The prime minister wants us to stay in a “reformed Europe”. But the one thing we can all agree on is that — in sharp contrast to what he aimed for in his fine Bloomberg speech three years ago — his renegotiation has not “reformed Europe” at all, just Britain’s relationship with the EU, and that in minor and easily reversible ways.

In the 1950s, you could just about make the case that Britain’s destiny lay in a regional trading bloc. But now? When container shipping has collapsed the cost of intercontinental trade? When the internet and budget airlines and Skype have made it as easy to do business in Asia and America and Africa as in Europe?

Let’s take a leap into the light, rejoin the world and become its leading innovators again.
 
I'm not 'going on about' them. I'm going on, at you, about the Full Fact link. The EU stuff about it will be in broader terms, as not every country has an NHS, so they talk in terms which encapsulate all the possibilities... not every country has the NHS, but they do have concerns regarding health services. So they instead talk about 'health services'.

Eg.

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1254

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/...alth/Health-Committee-TTIP-correspondence.pdf

Read what you post next time :)

Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Wow, you read all the information in my link remarkably quickly.

Anyway,
 
Coupled with the Gove blog the other day, this sums up my views, and just a good read for anyone interested.

...

The EU says it favours innovation, but what it means by this is not encouraging a ferment of new start-ups à la Silicon Valley, but top-down spending of taxpayers’ money on pet projects in science and technology. Yet even here there is no justification for an officious European Commission. The flagship science collaborations of Europe are not confined to the EU at all: they include countries such as Israel, Switzerland and Turkey. CERN’s accelerator crosses an EU border.

I wouldn't call CERN or ITER 'pet projects'. They're valuable investments in science. We should be proud of them, especially when they lead to innovations such as the world wide web. Yes, these projects are separate from the EU but they wouldn't survive without EU funding.

And Europe is full of new start-ups à la Silicon Valley. They don't tend to be in London though as rent is too expensive. Go to a bar in Berlin and people will be queuing up to bore you with tales of their latest start-up.
 
I wouldn't call CERN or ITER 'pet projects'. They're valuable investments in science. We should be proud of them, especially when they lead to innovations such as the world wide web. Yes, these projects are separate from the EU but they wouldn't survive without EU funding.

And Europe is full of new start-ups à la Silicon Valley. They don't tend to be in London though as rent is too expensive. Go to a bar in Berlin and people will be queuing up to bore you with tales of their latest start-up.

I don’t believe he is calling CERN a pet project? He just leads on to it after talking pet projects? Also funding from Europe or even Britain wouldn’t stop just because we leave would it?

Some funding within the EU has become farcical though. As long as it agrees with what we want it to we will throw money at it. I honestly feel the whole Green Energy debate has succumbed to this… but that is a different debate. Whole VW and petrol/diesel episode stemmed from ‘not fit for purpose’ EU regulations and bias.

I admit I don’t know a huge amount about start ups, especially in Europe, but from my limited experience it does seem like that little man is the firs tone to get shafted with any change the EU brings to the work place.

However for you just to pull out a relatively small point in that whole article must be saying something ;)
 
I don’t believe he is calling CERN a pet project? He just leads on to it after talking pet projects? Also funding from Europe or even Britain wouldn’t stop just because we leave would it?

If you were running a large science project, would rather apply for funding through one body or 28?

I admit I don’t know a huge amount about start ups, especially in Europe, but from my limited experience it does seem like that little man is the firs tone to get shafted with any change the EU brings to the work place.

I've worked for a couple of start-ups and the number of e-mails I still get from recruiters tells me that there's plenty of others out there.

The big difference between the Europe and the US is that US investors are way more gung-ho with their money. The typical US investor will give millions of dollars to any hoodie-wearing Stanford graduate with an idea that contains the right buzzwords. Sometimes that pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Either way, they're willing to take the risk. This difference in attitude that has nothing to do with the EU though.

However for you just to pull out a relatively small point in that whole article must be saying something ;)

LOL! :) I just didn't think that the author hadn't any clue about what drives innovation and that paragraph summed up his or her ignorance.
 
The cynic in me wonders if Dave's concerned about the long game and making sure he's got a cushy EU job after his PM term expires.

Think you could be right, if we vote to remain in the EU then Cameron stays as PM but we know he's going to resign before the next general election, Osborne will probably become PM in 2018/2019 and so can pick (now Lord) Cameron for a cushy Commissioner's job in 2019.
 
Think you could be right, if we vote to remain in the EU then Cameron stays as PM but we know he's going to resign before the next general election, Osborne will probably become PM in 2018/2019 and so can pick (now Lord) Cameron for a cushy Commissioner's job in 2019.

I can't see there is any chance Osborne would be PM, if they thought there was 'something of the night' about Howard, then Osborne is positively sulphurous.

He would be as popular amongst the voting public as syphilis
 
The funniest interview I ever was part of was for a job I didn't really want. So I was asking all sorts of questions (politely) about what opportunities existed in the company for training up and developing new skills.

They replied, completely matter-of-factly, that they didn't train their staff, as it wasn't cost effective. They had no training plans at all. Just didn't see the need. If they needed new skills, they would just hire someone who already had them. They basically said, "if you take this job that is the job you will be doing until you leave. We do not promote staff internally, we prefer to hire outside the company people who are already fully trained."

I will never forget that interview, because it is everything that is wrong with the so-called global economy. It works for business, but it royally ****s over people who would traditionally have risen through the ranks, furthering their training is they did so.

Today, you either teach yourself new skills in your own time and at your own expense, or get very lucky with an employer who bucks the trend. Otherwise, outsourcing and bringing in Indian labour is the order of the day.

But you can read exactly the same thing happening in the USA, so it's not exactly a problem with the EU.

I can't tell you how true that rings to me. Every promotion I have ever had, I got by leaving my current employer and going to a new one. And, whilst I'm a biased source, that's not because I'm a bad or unskilled employee. It's just that it's the fastest route to get anywhere. Modern companies are very bad at filling in from below meaning they wont promote because they'd have to find someone to replace you and give them the time to grow into the role. Instead, they keep you there and find someone else to bring in above you. It's basically just very short-term thinking.
 
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