Soldato
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Poll: The EU Referendum: What Will You Vote? (New Poll)
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Sorry but it's starting to sound a bit rambling here, I already said neither type of democracy is perfect so how could it be my perfect world? I promoted multi-nationalism for trade and partnerships of security etc. but not for local laws where a one glove fits all and stifled self interest approach wouldn't be any more than blind votes. Neither are perfect.
I proposed merely reorganising the balance of multi-nationalism as stated quite clearly with democratic accountability on the local side issues. I don't feel a top down approach works for all issues especially when it's top down restructuring of 28 countries at once. I've already shown there's kinks in the armour of the EU and how the member nations are falling back to defying the multi nationalist vote when the local issues become pressing such as Austria and hungary because that's how it works, first and foremost they are self interested and so a vote of 28 countries will always be trickled with such. I never said it was a dictatorship, I said it was a flawed democracy that ignored local interest and bred tensions through lack of concern and closeness to the people.
The proxies seem to be doing okay financially but when it comes to the blind politics I think we're starting to see how inflexible and unable to accomodate quick action the EU approach is. It's not that bad and I'm thinking of voting pro EU butttttt I might vote out too
Sorry if you disagree but I value both sides, democracy and sovereignity matters to me and I have a little more faith in the people than you but I respect the EU isn't exactly a tyrant and the stability and future it offers is also tempting and worthwhile. I'd just like a bit more balance of power.
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Soldato
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Sorry but it's starting to sound a bit rambling here, I already said neither type of democracy is perfect so how could it be my perfect world? I promoted multi-nationalism for trade and partnerships of security etc. but not for local laws where a one glove fits all and stifled self interest approach wouldn't be any more than blind votes. Neither are perfect.
I proposed merely reorganising the balance of multi-nationalism as stated quite clearly with democratic accountability on the local side issues. I don't feel a top down approach works for all issues especially when it's top down restructuring of 28 countries at once. I've already shown there's kinks in the armour of the EU and how the member nations are falling back to defying the multi nationalist vote when the local issues become pressing such as Austria and hungary because that's how it works, first and foremost they are self interested and so a vote of 28 countries will always be trickled with such. I never said it was a dictatorship, I said it was a flawed democracy that ignored local interest and bred tensions through lack of concern and closeness to the people.
The proxies seem to be doing okay financially but when it comes to the blind politics I think we're starting to see how inflexible and unable to accomodate quick action the EU approach is. It's not that bad and I'm thinking of voting pro EU butttttt I might vote out too
Welcome to the dialogue of your own making! You clearly have an ideal you're gunning at, but you don't want to flop it out in public, since it's rather unfashionable and historically aborted; trying to bury it in straw-men and half-hearted self-reflection. Great! Remind me not to trust you with any petition-writing in case of Brexit!
Make the list of said laws (we know about vacuum cleaner power, thank you), then sit down calmly, and think if they make sense in a multi-national common market, which both requires free movement of capital and manpower and good security.
How's that different from the laws we impose on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in our shared interest? Should these nations also show us the two finger salute every time their first minister is frustrated or cannot get their way in all things, or their representatives do not command the Commons to block unpopular laws?
People who act quickly regret it all their life. Don't gamble with the nation's future.
Caporegime
All I want is to elect an MP to represent me in parliament, where that parliaments authority is supreme, and be able to hold that MP, and the government formed in parliament to account.
What I don't want, is to end up where the EU is taking us, which is a place where the uk parliament has been reduced to a super-council, while some unelected commissioner in Brussels makes decisions that affect me and my family, with no way of holding them to account.
Soldato
Watch how this pole changes when the stay in campaigners get started. We will have no jobs, no doctors and most importantly to the sheeple a fear of house prices falling.
A Brexit is a dream like a Scottish independence was. The spin doctors and scare mongers will always win the day.
Special status will amount to nothing as we will have already voted in.
A Brexit is a dream like a Scottish independence was. The spin doctors and scare mongers will always win the day.
Special status will amount to nothing as we will have already voted in.
Everyone's all for it until their jobs being done better and at minimum wage or less money than you earn now by a european import.
The Eu can only lead to standards of living falling.
Alas the leftwing uni going melting pot lovey doveys are already out in force painting the no vote to be ignorant "racist people".
Cue every single pro no voter being shown in the media will be some tattooed middle aged aggressive looking football hooligan type.
The political correctness and don't want to be seen thinking or saying that sheepleness still consumes our society so a no vote isn't going to happen.
Still it's going to be bliss watching the downfall of the middle class and wage erosion to a two class society the working poor and the rich.
The Eu can only lead to standards of living falling.
Alas the leftwing uni going melting pot lovey doveys are already out in force painting the no vote to be ignorant "racist people".
Cue every single pro no voter being shown in the media will be some tattooed middle aged aggressive looking football hooligan type.
The political correctness and don't want to be seen thinking or saying that sheepleness still consumes our society so a no vote isn't going to happen.
Still it's going to be bliss watching the downfall of the middle class and wage erosion to a two class society the working poor and the rich.
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Soldato
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Sir, your argument and alias amuse me greatly. Have you considered a career as a French pimp-shepherd? You can keep it even if we vote to stay in!
No scorza that's not what really bothers you because commissioners can't move a muscle without the support from the EU Parliament and those people are elected directly.
What bothers you (and I don't want why you just don't admit it) is that your vote has the same value as the vote of Pole, Romanian or any other nationality you consider inferior.
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There is no ideal, I've already explained that. Man made forms of government are never perfect or we'd have all our problems solved by now, it's just not that simple though. I feel local concerns matter and I feel multi national business matters so I'm simply neutral in the argument and voting as a regular person so what nefarious angle do you suspect I have? I came to this board planning to clearly vote out as you saw but I've educated myself further on the benefits of the EU but I'm still undecided, simple. Your speaking as if you're some head of a company that's always making excuses because he wants to believe he is correct, the future can go either way and I've promoted voting on the positives a few times but I just question EU political motive more than the EU structure.Welcome to the dialogue of your own making! You clearly have an ideal you're gunning at, but you don't want to flop it out in public, since it's rather unfashionable and historically aborted; trying to bury it in straw-men and half-hearted self-reflection. Great! Remind me not to trust you with any petition-writing in case of Brexit!
Make the list of said laws (we know about vacuum cleaner power, thank you), then sit down calmly, and think if they make sense in a multi-national common market, which both requires free movement of capital and manpower and good security.
How's that different from the laws we impose on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in our shared interest? Should these nations also show us the two finger salute every time their first minister is frustrated or cannot get their way in all things, or their representatives do not command the Commons to block unpopular laws?
People who act quickly regret it all their life. Don't gamble with the nation's future.
The difference with those countries is that they are literally connected to us so our infrastructure and borders are combined in a way that makes sense for us to commonly find some ground. I didn't demand they be forced to our hip myself and I was happy for devolution to give them further control even within a united group but I think that sort of proves that the locals aren't always happy unless you give them some control. That example only lends to my argument that some issues should be dealt with locally and some multi nationally as I proposed from the get go. Merely a shift in the balance of power rather than an entire political restructuring. Scotland did exactly what I'd favour, demand more power but stay connected. Times change, people change, governments change. Sometimes we can do with relooking at old systems less they get a little rusty. We have another few months to decide how we vote, it's not exactly acting quickly, I'm happy to inform myself more on the issues, advantages and disadvantages but I just don't believe there are no disadvantages like you.
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
Until they do something you don't like then you'll be back on here ranting about it like seemingly every other political subject under the sun.
Soldato
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And, if we were to take this back down to local politics for the sake of an analogy he can process, he wants poor people to have an equal say in how the country is run. Broadly supports redistribution through taxation, and the like. So democracy, franchise and proportional representation is a comfy shoe while it fits.
God forbid we should EVER extend the principle to anything other than keeping revolutions at home in check!Basically, scorza's whole worldview and core thesis:
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Associate
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Me too man, I don't mind a few laws for the better being held outside our control (trade, human rights, freedom of movement etc.) but I want accountability in the majority of areas rather than a one glove fits all approach coming down from the top. Still we can't argue there's not benefits to either side and I am coming round to the EU but damn a little shift in the balance of power would be a nice touch.
Soldato
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Chat to your MEP more often. They are there to answer your questions and concerns about Europe all year round. Representation in action!
Yes, both the standard of living has risen significantly since the 70s and wages are growing. Life expectancy's good. Crime's fallen. Inflation is low. Cost of living is manageable and variable across regions. Trade is cheap with the EU. If you mean London, then non-EU property investors have more to do with it than anything else, and no they won't be going anywhere any time soon -- we like to take their money. We can debate poverty and house-building derps all year long -- it's domestic policy, and little of it's to do with the big bad EU scapegoat.
If we leave the EU, there's still a price to pay for being an advanced service-based economy regardless. Don't like capitalism? Offer a better system that works, test it and get people to vote for it. Until then, there's no need to take our your personal frustration on whatever your particular set of preconceptions tells you to.
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Caporegime
It's really sad that you'd think that about me
I'm a patriot, I shan't deny it and I don't see that as a bad thing. I care deeply about this country and its future, I've never said anything to give anyone cause to think that other people are 'inferior' as you put it, that would be a disgusting view to hold
Caporegime
Chat to your MEP more often. They are there to answer your questions and concerns about Europe all year round. Representation in action!
I don't have an MEP, I have about 15 I think lol. Which one do I chat to?
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That's good but I don't think they'd squeeze any more blood out of the rock that is the EU than Cameron didChat to your MEP more often. They are there to answer your questions and concerns about Europe all year round. Representation in action!
Might give it a go for a lark and see what jolly woffle they send back floating around the issue 
Soldato
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Whichever from your region. They are proportional and equivalent. If you want just one bloke/lady, I'd recommend either going by the majority rule (the man from the top of the list of the party that got the most votes), or someone who would disagree with your deeply held views, to avoid confirmation bias.
Pick your poison. But don't keep telling people there's nobody that represents you. You know the parties you're voting for. The list of candidates is on the ballot paper in full. The more votes the party gets the more of those candidates end up in the EUP for your region. Simples. The guy/gal at the top of their party's list is the most likely person to get the job. Forgot whom you've launched in the skiff towards Europe? Your local council can help you track them down.
Sounds a bit more fair than FPTP, where most of the vote is shafted, doesn't it? Yes, I think it does!
That's good but I don't think they'd squeeze any more blood out of the rock that is the EU than Cameron did
Get your money's worth! Nige certainly has!
It's really sad that you'd think that about me
You love the country and its people, fine. But your method for helping either is somewhat like a nostrum. Which is where we part ideological ways.
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Of course not, just wait until there's a poll showing no in the lead, all the stories of how Asda bills and petroleum will rise to untold levels and we won't be able to afford cornflakes any more.
To be fair the further sterling crashes the more realistic a prospect it is that we'll see fuel price rises.
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