The Game Changers - Cameron, Schwarzenegger, Chan

Not seen this yet, but a bodybuilder friend was ranting the other day about it calling it vegan propaganda :D

Apparently a few of the people involved have financial interests in promoting this narrative due to having their own vegan and plant based supplements and nutrition lines?

I need to give this a watch.
 
You keep saying "fact" instead of "opinion" -

Food

One set of "experts" say X is true and another set of equally believable "experts" say X is false so why should we listen to you state "as fact" that you and your experts are right and everyone else and their experts are wrong? What proof do we uneducated plebs have that the highly technical scientific data that the scientists present is accurate when no "impartial" body is agreeing with one side or the other and the research the other experts provide refutes the previous experts claims as the pendulum swings the argument each way?

Greta


The Russian aren't ignoring facts, everyone agrees that some form of Climate Change is real, even the Russians. The problem the Russians and most of the West have is not with Greta's warnings (we've known about it for the past 45 years), but instead it's all to do with Greta's "Solutions" which most agree are horrifying, de-industrialising the West (which is massively reducing already it's emissions, US is down 10%) back to living life like a 1700's mud farmer whilst China (the biggest polluter and increasing rapidly since 2011) and India (the second fastest riser since 2011 and 3rd worst polluter), who she never talks about in her "Solution" BTW, kill the world with pollutants without being checked by the now de-industrialised West.

Food

The overwhelming consensus now in peer reviewed research is, meat is generally not as beneficial to a person as someone who does eat it. The key understanding you have here is a pool of data, say, '1000' peer reviewed papers - first we check who funded it - to bare in mind impartiality, we then review each paper - to peer review it - we then seek trends in the data, again bearing in mind who funded the research or if if was done by an independant educational institution that's funding is in no way related to the research.

The general factual results coming in, as a trend say, meat isn't a very good food source, nor is it particularly a good source of protein - in terms of health, remember, the animal only built its own protein from the protein found in its plant based food source.

So to answer your question the pendulum is swinging excessively in the direction of a vegan diet being generally overwhelmingly better for a human.

Why are vegetarians always so pushy?

It's not going to kill me to eat a little meat and I enjoy it. Each to their own.

Because 'we' generally have realised something so obviously profound, it baffles us why people choose to ignore it - but is to important not to share.

I'm sure in the 40/50/60s some people 'nagged' about how bad smoking was for people, but generally people didnt care, believe it or ignored it - despite at the time in the research of the day overwhelming floods of papers were beginning to appear stating a direct link between smoking and cancer - however a great many of papers came out claiming smoking was actually good for you - these were funded by tobacco companies.

The same thing is happening again today, this time with the meat industry - the 'propaganda' is designed to keep people buying and eating meat - over simplifying it, as the tobacco industry did decades ago, a simple example being 'protein is good for you' same as back then they would have said 'tobacco is a natural plant' - it paints a picture that is disingenuous.

The irony of your comment that it won't kill you, is, in-fact, meat consumption over a life time is exactly one of the main reasons for heart conditions and cancer in the west today, 3 personal close family members in my family are currently all dealing with recent heart attacks or cancer treatment, they have all had meat nearly every meal and dairy, all in their mid 60's, all extremely fit and slim, never smoked either. Given modern living and medical care, mid 60's is far to young to suffer this.........the only common link is a high meat high animal product diet, in addition one of the close family friends has suffered random health issues in the past 5 years, finally, the one guy in the friend group who is the same age, grew up in the same area, lived in the same area all his life - same body size, mass, not fat etc is as fit as a fiddle - he's had decades of relentless friendly mocking from everyone for being a veggi his whole life (not even vegan) - yet he's now the last man standing - sure its too small a sample size and circumstantial - but it just so happens to be the same result as countless studies to date.

The main take away here is - the studies are done, and ongoing we dont have to wait to see 'how it goes' the evidence is overwhelming, but its not in mainstream media, it hurts the rich friends of newspapers to remove an entire food industry.

Remember how smoking is obviously viewed as a health risk today? Its taken nearly 8 decades to reach this point, in another 80 years people will view excessive/any meat consumption in the same way, in that time meat consumption will still happen, in the same way some people still smoke today - as with anything 'radical' accepting the truth is a slow process.
 
Any chance you've watched the video a second time and found an answer to the question I posed?

What about the 5% (near 400 million of us on this planet right now), that going Vegan ultimately spells disaster or a final Game Over to? The issue with G6PD isn't as jumpy as your Vegan vs Meat debate (which constantly swings from side to side), it's an established fact and not disputed ANYWHERE across the globe, to those who inherited G6PD, our Red Blood cells die when they come in contact with Soya (the primary base of going Vegan). There's no if's or but's involved there, it's the base of what is happening inside us when we run into something we shouldn't. We don't control it, we didn't ask for it either. We just have it, it's who we are. Just like our skin colour.

The outright effects on us G6PD'ers vary, as we inherit different severity levels, so some only suffer minor aenemia and so darker urines and stools. Some others (like myself) become weak and lathargic as well. Some suffer blackouts and faint, having a hard time breathing. Some others (like my mother) suffer cramps and spams from the blood being unable to carry oxygen in the system (due to heavy Red Blood cell loss). And some (like my grandfather) just flat out dies after short continued exposure.

So I would like to ask, has that video provided any answers for the people like me, who wouldn't mind going Vegan, but can't actually? So we know it has factored in this 5% before it makes this claim? Or should we be ignored because we're a "minority"?
 
Any chance you've watched the video a second time and found an answer to the question I posed?

What about the 5% (near 400 million of us on this planet right now), that going Vegan ultimately spells disaster or a final Game Over to? The issue with G6PD isn't as jumpy as your Vegan vs Meat debate (which constantly swings from side to side), it's an established fact and not disputed ANYWHERE across the globe, to those who inherited G6PD, our Red Blood cells die when they come in contact with Soya (the primary base of going Vegan). There's no if's or but's involved there, it's the base of what is happening inside us when we run into something we shouldn't. We don't control it, we didn't ask for it either. We just have it, it's who we are. Just like our skin colour.

The outright effects on us G6PD'ers vary, as we inherit different severity levels, so some only suffer minor aenemia and so darker urines and stools. Some others (like myself) become weak and lathargic as well. Some suffer blackouts and faint, having a hard time breathing. Some others (like my mother) suffer cramps and spams from the blood being unable to carry oxygen in the system (due to heavy Red Blood cell loss). And some (like my grandfather) just flat out dies after short continued exposure.

So I would like to ask, has that video provided any answers for the people like me, who wouldn't mind going Vegan, but can't actually? So we know it has factored in this 5% before it makes this claim? Or should we be ignored because we're a "minority"?

An interesting point, I am just educating myself on G6PD right now to learn more - thanks for the heads up.

However straight away, no, 'Soya (the primary base of going Vegan)' - is completely false - DO a lot of off the shelf vegan products contain soya? - yes, do you NEED to eat soya to be vegan? NO, not at all - oat milk, almond milk are some alternatives, coconut milk - 90% of what I eat isn't soy based.

Anyways going to make a stirfry ;) - I will however read up more on G6PD when im done - but its super easy to be vegan without any soy at all.
 

I found this from British Institute of Clinical Pharmacology

Source

Br J Clin Pharmacol. 2017 Jan; 83(1): 211–212.
Published online 2016 Sep 20. doi: 10.1111/bcp.13091
PMCID: PMC5338146
PMID: 27650490
What G6PD‐deficient individuals should really avoid
Shaun Wen Huey Lee,corresponding author 1 Nathorn Chaiyakunapruk, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 and Nai Ming Lai 5

Overall, we found that there was scant literature describing foods or chemicals which triggered haemolysis in G6PD‐deficient individuals. Only 38 articles, describing 14 different types of food or chemical, were found (a full list of the articles retrieved can be obtained by contacting S.W.H.L.; Table 1). We noted that only the consumption of fava beans or food cross‐contaminated with fava beans 4, as well as the use of naphthalene and aniline dyes, were consistently associated with haemolysis. However, there was only one isolated case report describing haemolysis when G6PD‐deficient individuals consumed: fenugreek, unripe peach or smoked synthetic cannabinoid, or consumed beans within the same genus as fava beans – namely, Vicia sativa (common vetch) and Vicia faba (broad bean). Reports of haemolysis have also been noted when G6PD‐deficient individuals came into contact with flower pollen, the plant Hoya carnosa, silver sulfadiazine, aluminium phosphide and menthol products (including menthol powder and medicated plaster). Considering the scarcity of such reports, there is insufficient evidence to reach a clear conclusion regarding the risks of the substances mentioned in causing haemolysis in G6PD‐deficient individuals in general. However, there have been several reports of haemolysis in G6PD‐deficient individuals, linking the use of food coloured with the reddish‐orange agent 1‐phenylazo‐2‐naphthol‐6‐sulphonic acid, which is found in food colouring agent, Orange‐RN 5, 6. This food additive has subsequently been banned in many countries, which may account for the paucity of report on it in recent years. Nevertheless, we urge caution while consuming any food which contains a high concentration of this agent in view of the potential for haemolysis and toxicity 7.

Foods/chemicals that should be avoided by G6PD‐deficient individuals:

Fava beans Naphthalene
Aniline dyes

Of specific interest to the above abstract:

"We noted that only the consumption of fava beans or food cross‐contaminated with fava beans 4, as well as the use of naphthalene and aniline dyes, were consistently associated with haemolysis"

It appears or suggests soy is less of a primary issue of G6PD than you may think, perhaps a cross contamination is taking place, I'm not sure of the relation of fava beans to soya beans, i guess they are of a similar genetic makeup though ?, I'll look some more for you though as you suffer from the problem - sorry to hear you do.

EDIT UPDATE:

From verywell health:

G6PD deficiency is also called favism; particularly the most severe forms of G6PD deficiency. This is because the ingestion of fava beans (also known as broad beans) can trigger hemolytic attacks in patients with G6PD deficiency. Some suggest that all legumes (such as peas, lentils, or peanuts) be avoided, but whether or not this is actually needed is unknown.

It appears then that its a generally known issue with legumes, but differs in sufferers ? It's still easy however to be vegan and avoid legumes - harder to do sure, but not impossible.
 
However straight away, no, 'Soya (the primary base of going Vegan)' - is completely false - DO a lot of off the shelf vegan products contain soya? - yes, do you NEED to eat soya to be vegan? NO, not at all - oat milk, almond milk are some alternatives, coconut milk - 90% of what I eat isn't soy based.

It appears or suggests soy is less of a primary issue of G6PD than you may think, perhaps a cross contamination is taking place, I'm not sure of the relation of fava beans to soya beans, i guess they are of a similar genetic makeup though ?, I'll look some more for you though as you suffer from the problem - sorry to hear you do.

It appears then that its a generally known issue with legumes, but differs in sufferers ? It's still easy however to be vegan and avoid legumes - harder to do sure, but not impossible.

What you may not aware of, is that G6PD is technically a secondary concurrent allergy issue; You can still have the normal main allergy that everyone else could suffer from ON TOP of the G6PD, meaning that a massive source of Protein to Vegans (Soya and Nuts and others as well) are off the menu as they can induce a crises for the G6PD sufferer.

We also have age and other issues as well to factor in, so for example, my mother: Her advancing age means that going Vegan would mean the only source of Protein remaining would be dark leafy greens. The problem here is that she has an issue whereby she is heavy on Iron as well (Menopause and other Genetic factors), something which Dark Leafy Greens are known for being highly concentrate in. So for someone like her, Soya, Nuts and Leafy Greens are off the table if she wants to stay away from being woozy and faint ( :: edit in :: Or indeed suffer cirrhosis from too much Iron). And in her age, certainly doesn't want to add risk of falling to her list of potential issues ( :: edit in :: Or Liver damage). Or in short, she has no source of Vegan Protein available at that point that is "safe" for her.

Fava Beans is 100% tested to cause haemolysis for us G6PD sufferers (it is called Favism for a reason), but as you correctly surmised, it is not the only item that can do so (other foods have not been as conclusively tested, but it is known other items can impact us in an identical fashion). Again Soya is one such other widely known about product, but there are others. And of course, as I mentioned, your usual allergy that others normally check for as well.

If you look at that, with the occasional added adverse allergy reaction added in, it makes certain allergy groupings impossible to be Vegan at all. Eating Meat is much more "safe" for us, if not prefered, since we can fall ill over time and feel uncomfortable if we are adversely affected enough consuming or interacting with a plant based trigger (and there are certainly more than the most commonly known Soya and Fava varieties); I know there's nothing "more" to be concerned about after all from the barbeque chicken wings or steak that I had comparatively. For example, if the Wings and Steak had issue, anyone else of the 95% would have the same impact (same type of issue), but that's not the same in reverse when 0% of the 95% will be affected by certain plants or derivatives of it, whilst 100% of the 5% will be impacted in some fashion.

This means that compared to having meat as food, going Vegan is not a simple matter as you made out (that from the video; because they can, everyone can survive if not thrive off of a Vegan diet as well then). And that is what I am trying to point out; that Mother Nature (genetics, evolution, whatever) has made it impossible for "some" (*cough* millions *cough*) of us to do so (unless we have a death wish or something, but then there are easier, better, ways of accomplishing that).
 
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Netflix documentaries and movies like this aren't unbiased sources of information, they're written and marketed to polarise and to sell. In this case, all the athletes of note featured only switched to vegan after they had got to where they are and....

-Arnold Schwarzenegger - due to release plant based protein powder following the recent surge in popularity of plant based diets, built his entire physique (and career) by consuming lot of high protein animal based foods (and steroids).

-Patrik Baboumian aka "the ox" is a German strongman who doesn't come close to any leading strongman competitors, he's never competed at Europe or World's Strongest Man. He also built most of his strength as a vegetarian and only switched to veganism in 2011, but tellingly hasn't done anything of note strength wise since 2012. His typical day's eating includes lots of plant based protein powders and supplements to fill gaps his vegan diet can't fill.

Novak Djokovic - did a single year as a vegan in 2016 but abandoned it due to poor performance and injury throughout the 2017 season. Tellingly he states his diet is now "plant based" rather than vegan.

-Kendrick Farris - dropped off the grid, after switching to veganism, moving up a weight class and lifting less

-Free runner, Tim Shieff - removed from the production of the movie. He recently featured on This Morning describing how it made him sick and "wrecked his health" including stopping him being able to orgasm He does have a history of whacky fad diets including drinking his own p*ss, but still.

-Griff Whalen: went vegan 2014 out of the league 2016

-Bryant Jennings: went vegan end of 2013 (17-0 before vegan, 7-4 after vegan)

-Mischa Janiec: went vegan fall of 2015 - no wins 2 years after

-Morgan Mitchell went vegan 2014... in 2017 finished 26th place world championships. Didn't even place in latest Oz championships.

-James Brett Wilks went vegan 2011, retired from MMA in 2012

Then you have Lewis Hamilton who is still 'at the top' but then how much diet affects the athletic ability to drive a really fast car well?
 
Already answered his question previously....but thanks for your entirely useful comment! Lol

Well, not answered very well though. 'We are pushy because we don't understand why everyone else doesn't do what we do' isn't a great answer tbh.

Netflix documentaries and movies like this aren't unbiased sources of information, they're written and marketed to polarise and to sell. In this case, all the athletes of note featured only switched to vegan after they had got to where they are and....

-Arnold Schwarzenegger - due to release....

{lots more evidence snipped}

Interesting...
 
Netflix documentaries and movies like this aren't unbiased sources of information, they're written and marketed to polarise and to sell. In this case, all the athletes of note featured only switched to vegan after they had got to where they are and....

-Arnold Schwarzenegger - due to release plant based protein powder following the recent surge in popularity of plant based diets, built his entire physique (and career) by consuming lot of high protein animal based foods (and steroids).

-Patrik Baboumian aka "the ox" is a German strongman who doesn't come close to any leading strongman competitors, he's never competed at Europe or World's Strongest Man. He also built most of his strength as a vegetarian and only switched to veganism in 2011, but tellingly hasn't done anything of note strength wise since 2012. His typical day's eating includes lots of plant based protein powders and supplements to fill gaps his vegan diet can't fill.

Novak Djokovic - did a single year as a vegan in 2016 but abandoned it due to poor performance and injury throughout the 2017 season. Tellingly he states his diet is now "plant based" rather than vegan.

-Kendrick Farris - dropped off the grid, after switching to veganism, moving up a weight class and lifting less

-Free runner, Tim Shieff - removed from the production of the movie. He recently featured on This Morning describing how it made him sick and "wrecked his health" including stopping him being able to orgasm He does have a history of whacky fad diets including drinking his own p*ss, but still.

-Griff Whalen: went vegan 2014 out of the league 2016

-Bryant Jennings: went vegan end of 2013 (17-0 before vegan, 7-4 after vegan)

-Mischa Janiec: went vegan fall of 2015 - no wins 2 years after

-Morgan Mitchell went vegan 2014... in 2017 finished 26th place world championships. Didn't even place in latest Oz championships.

-James Brett Wilks went vegan 2011, retired from MMA in 2012

Then you have Lewis Hamilton who is still 'at the top' but then how much diet affects the athletic ability to drive a really fast car well?

It seems your misinformed sir.

Arnie - well documented, yes he used to, from a time when it was thought to be 'manly' to eat meat, due to advertising - he's still kicking butt now off plants

Patrik Baboumian -

2013 World record yoke-walk, 550,2 kg over 10 m in Toronto
2015 World record yoke-walk, 560 kg in 28 seconds

Obviously since 2011 he's carrying more than anyone on earth.

Novak Djokovic - again your cherry picking his comments, yeah he is plant based, but its well published he dislikes the word vegan and the mindset that goes along with the word that gives a knee jerk reaction - plant based IS vegan.

Tim Shieff - didnt work for him, perhaps he has a g6pd issue, Im researching that more

-Griff Whalen: went vegan 2014 out of the league 2016
-Bryant Jennings: went vegan end of 2013 (17-0 before vegan, 7-4 after vegan)
-Mischa Janiec: went vegan fall of 2015 - no wins 2 years after
-Morgan Mitchell went vegan 2014... in 2017 finished 26th place world championships. Didn't even place in latest Oz championships.
-James Brett Wilks went vegan 2011, retired from MMA in 2012


Performance could be down to many things, many athletes have worse or better performance over time, you just cherry picked a few who went down hill, in the doc itself, McCreggor got his ass handed to him by a vegan because he had a meat based diet.

And the final nail in the coffin of intent for your argument & your attitude of intent is "but then how much diet affects the athletic ability to drive a really fast car well?" - wow, just wow, you do know F1 drivers are up there as the fittest of all athletes? They have to have extreme human endurance, strength and stamina to drive the cars at the very peak of performance - being subject to 2 - 4.5 times the force of gravity in various dimensions for 2 hours on race day, more on test, quals etc is exhausting, its been known for years the fittest F1 drivers, perform at their best, its not only physical strength either - in that sport reaction times are everything because your going 200mph - a fitter human will have faster responses.

We could both sit here cherry picking stuff, and you don't have enough information for the last 5 sportsman getting worse in their game.

I'm sure you won't address why nearly all top athletes are dropping meat now, be it to veggi or vegan diets, the top performers are all going plant, there must be some reason, and that reason is science and money - science says they will get better performance (all other stats being equal - of course not just diet affects them, training, age, etc) and money that funds them wants them to win so makes them do it.
 
I am intending to watch the movie at some point. My concern is how easy it is to make things look one way by, as you say, cherry picking information and maybe missing some other stuff out. (Totally different, but look at 'Making a Murderer'. I stopped watching after the first season having done a little research myself and deciding they were putting a MASSIVE slant on it, as close to lying as it could be. I'm not saying this movie/documentary has done this, but I would suggest it's perhaps not the best source to base the whole argument on as they will surely have some bias?)
 
I am intending to watch the movie at some point. My concern is how easy it is to make things look one way by, as you say, cherry picking information and maybe missing some other stuff out. (Totally different, but look at 'Making a Murderer'. I stopped watching after the first season having done a little research myself and deciding they were putting a MASSIVE slant on it, as close to lying as it could be. I'm not saying this movie/documentary has done this, but I would suggest it's perhaps not the best source to base the whole argument on as they will surely have some bias?)

given the fact james cameron's company verdient foods inc has invested $140 million into pea protein production and
he has a manufacturing facility in canada.. i would say there is lol
his pal arnold is a politician/businessman of course he is following the money, he don't care..
it's going to be profitable in promoting this plant based way of eating, it's being pushed hard atm.
what is not being told is the downside of eating this way, that plants contain lectins, oxalates, phytic acid, goitrogens and other compounds..also the poor bioavailability of plant protein compared to animal based protein. eating a lot of plants is hard on the digestion..
i ate a plant based diet for 4yrs and it is not what it's being portrayed. my health went worse not better, caveat emptor!
 
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