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The Last of US II Spoiler and story discussion thread.

Discussion in 'Console Games & Hardware' started by Gray2233, Jun 20, 2020.

  1. Amatsubu

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 8, 2012

    Posts: 2,848

    I'd agree with Benji on the 7/10, for me it was more like 6.5-7/10 but that's only because of the presentation and a couple of good moments and more or less solid gameplay. Though it has quite a bit of padding and combat overstays its welcome and some stuff is pretty wonky. The new amazing jumping feature, for example, looks incredibad among all the animations. Melee is also not amazing.
    Looks great though but it's still not as impressive as the completely open-world RDR2. Also, limiting the action mostly to three days in Seattle makes it a lot less varied and less memorable than 1 IMO.

    The writing, though, oh boy... I almost find it insulting to the player that they think many people won't connect the dots. It's already happening, more and more people talk about this stuff.

    It's rare when I can sit here and enumerate stuff off the top of my head that often BEGGARS BELIEF. It's all covered in very pretty graphics and some cool moments but even those moments often make little sense given the setting and circumstances, like Ellie wasting time to play guitar/sing and making noise in a hostile city full of infected and two warring factions, or Dina going from "I think I'm pregnant" to looking visibly pregnant and requiring medical attention in three damn days... Those are pretty minor, though, but still stupid given the calibre of the game. And there's lots of stuff like that, I've already mentioned some.

    Previously, I stated Joel and Tommy behaved totally out of character in that hack job of a "prologue" full of really lucky coincidences...

    The thing is, everyone in this behaves like idiots... Ellie outeight swears to kill everyone but they let her live, goes after Abby and kills her friends, Abby let's her live again... What is she hoping for? Similarly, Ellie has a problem finishing Abby at every opportunity when she's been murdering everyone around (one pregnant woman triggered some remorse, though, pure comedy gold) There's a time skip at the end where Tommy acts like an idiot again and despite being hesitant about revenge in the beginning now holds Ellie to some promise she had made god knows when before settling on the farm. Not to mention, he he'd been shot through the head and lived, lol.

    She has a kid now and goes many miles, killing many people again to find Abby and then decide that one more murder is too much. 5sec Joel flashback did the trick. Here we have it, revenge solves nothing, cycle of violence, so deep and so brave... and so SPECTACULARLY poor and cliché that I can't believe Neil could keep a straight face reading it out. It's especially bad when you know what they were going for.

    I'll give the ending 8 fingers out of 10, though, because it was moderately amusing.

    Really, it's too much for me. On top of everything else, they waste so much time padding out the game but no character or faction gets properly fleshed out. Who the **** wastes 10h including a 10h DLC in the main game to make Abby almost equally flat and out of place as when I had first played the character?

    As for LGBT stuff, I didn't mind. It just didn't add squat to the game and I though it would be handled in a more mature fashion, I hoped for some more intimate signs of relationship and stuff but I guess Neil was only capable of some teenage TV series cringe. Not too surprising given the entire plot.

    Seriously, this game will be a meme factory for years.

    EDIT: Yeah, that was part 2 guys, sorry:p
     
  2. Andr3w

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 6, 2004

    Posts: 19,466

    Location: England

    For the flashback to Joel while killing Abby, I almost feel Abby and Lev reminded her of Joel and herself. Maybe a realisation at that moment that killing Abby won't bring Joel back and won't make her happy.
     
  3. Amatsubu

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 8, 2012

    Posts: 2,848

    I think it still makes little sense. What does Ellie really know about Lev? Even less than we do and it's the most fleshed out side char in the game, lol. It's the second time she sees him/her. She threatened to kill him/her the moment before to lure Abby into fighting.... She has no idea how their relationship looks like.

    She went all that way and she was so determined to end it since day 1 and suddenly one short flashback changes her mind... Doesn't she think about her family? Isn't she worried Abby might have a change of heart and track them down at some point given how the rest of this mind-boggling plot panned out?
    Would you risk it? It simply looked comical for me, I can't help it, I just notice too many silly things in the plot. It's even worse, she should've killed BOTH Abby and Lev to ensure the safety of her close ones. They wanted to go with this entire bleak theme and violence for violence's sake themselves, why not go the entire way and make her turn into a cruel killer because of her loss? That was the only way to end the cliched cycle of vengeance.

    If that's the explanation that satisfies you, by all means go with it. All that matters is if you enjoyed the game. I actually doubt Neil even thought about the ending too much so there's no use to think about it, given the state of the entire plot.
     
  4. Nexus18

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 4, 2009

    Posts: 23,593

    https://www.change.org/p/sony-remake-the-storyline-of-the-last-of-us-part-ii

    [​IMG]

    :D :D :D

    Also, I think pew is done with the game now, didn't even finish his stream there LOL


    Someone made a great comparison earlier too, could you imagine John Wick, if he got all the way to the end only to say you know what, it doesn't matter, I forgive you for killing my dog, I wonder if that film would have done as well had that happened.... :p

    EDIT:

    ZOMG!!!

    You aren't allowed an opinion as you haven't played it for yourself!!!! The story makes so much more sense when you have the controller in your own hands and get to play the game, how could you possibly understand the story any other way.....
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
  5. Jase

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 4,741

    Location: Pembrokeshire

    Well I enjoyed every minute of it so it gets a 10/10 from me, I'm sorry but any score of 0/10 should be ignored they have either not played it, have jumped on the hate train or just plain stupid.

    I'll admit I wasn't too keen on Abby at the start of playing her, but actually playing her story you learn a lot including why she's built like an ox which considering the contrast in the way she ended just added more to it.

    So many great little touches too like using the touchpad on the controller to play the guitar, not over done but just enough to draw you into the story a bit.

    I actually thought the game was over at the Farm so had a total shock to find out there was more, and what an ending brutal, intense, amazing.
     
  6. Poneros

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 18, 2015

    Posts: 4,153

    At the very least this game needed a sort of 'editor' to reign it in & condense everything better. It just dragged on for so long! And with no pay off :(
     
  7. Amatsubu

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 8, 2012

    Posts: 2,848

    Can you elaborate what you learned about Abby or her placeholder crew? How did she develop? What crucial info did you get to know beside the very questionable plot twist and the fact she's scared of heights? This is more of a discussion thread, after all. Did I miss the bit where she takes steroids? Because this build is impossible for a female otherwise, that's what makes it pretty comical in this setting. It's Biology 101. You say it's logically explained. It's one of the more minor in this case, concessions that the plot uses to push itself.

    Also, no offense, you say 0/10 is completely unreasonable when you give it a 10/10 barely even explaining what was so good when I spent entire paragraphs dissecting why the ending alone makes little sense. And it's not really stuff you have to analyse to see. It hits you in the head unless you turn off your brain. Are we really going to give it a pass so easily? 10/10 is just as extreme and should be ignored just as easily given the state of the writing that you didn't touch upon at all, which is funny given how easily you dismiss negative opinions about the game in the official thread as "some haven't played it", "others repeat", "some have decided this or that". It's perfectly fine to like this, let's just not be delusional.

    I'd be nice if you'd at leastgive some sort of insight about what was amazing in the ending. To me, it just does what many moments in this game do, tries to use cheap shock value to distract you from the immense stupidity of what's actually going on.
     
  8. Nexus18

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 4, 2009

    Posts: 23,593

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
  9. Jase

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 4,741

    Location: Pembrokeshire

    OK first I try not to dissect the story to a point where I'm just looking for flaws,which I think a lot of people are doing based on info that was available before the games release but equally I appreciate that there are people who love the games story and will do so. I played the original 3 times I think and is one of my favourite games yet if you asked me the other day what happened throughout the game I'd have a hard time remembering.

    So my 10/10 may or not been justified, maybe I should have given it a 9/10 or 8/10 because of some plot holes etc but I didn't as I had no issue with it However a 0/10 is completely unjustified no matter which way you look at it... if you work on a scoring system and I'll score story low as example

    Graphics 10/10
    Sound 10/10
    Gameplay 8/10
    Story 3/10
    Value 9/10

    Overall 8/10

    With reference to her build, I had no idea that Abby was a character in the game until I played it as I had completely avoided everything about it on the lead up. Her build/look was questionable and I was wondering why she was like it, there was no mention of her taking steroids (but her dad was a doctor and there are mutants roaming around so who knows what she may have got hold of!) but they did address her obsession with training and she boasted about how much weight she could press to Owen early on.

    As for the ending well, it was shocking but I don't consider it to be a cheap shock but like other parts of the game it got you to question your actions and then ultimately the consequences.

    I even sat through the credits and the closing track was really good, just like the use of sound throughout the game which was noticeably well done.
     
  10. Amatsubu

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 8, 2012

    Posts: 2,848

    Fair enough, thanks for that. I never said 0/10 are justified, I don't think they are at all. I think it's more about making a statement because of the unrealistic reviews. It's stupid, I agree. I just meant that 10/10 is just as extreme and if someone really had issues with the story it could go pretty low. Especially that I've seen 10/10s on metacritic with reviews saying "fjkvdinxykndifjvkfd" and other stuff so it goes both ways.

    Abby looks pretty comical to me, TBH. She'd have to waste time and energy scavenging for steroids and keeping a perfect diet in this setting where it's hard to find a working hospital. Makes it even harder to relate to her because I know just how impossible this build is for a woman to achieve and how impractical given the setting, even the woman Abby was modelled after is on steroids. The game wastes too much time with her without fleshing her out properly as well.


    About the story, it may seem like nitpicking sometimes but it's pretty obvious to many people. I can disregard all the minor inconsequencies of the plot completely and still enumerate things that really make me not take this seriously, the ending is one of the more standout ones. It didn't make me think about consequences but about the stupidity of it all. Ellie kills people cruelly for the entire game and she magically feels remorse only for the pregnant woman and the one who did all of this. She disregards the safety of her family and the immense massacre because of 5sec Joel flashback. The ONLY way to end the cycle of vengeance was to kill Abby and Lev on the spot, ensuring they won't come after her later. Ironically, it'd also be way less cliché. It's a terribly written ending compared to 1, and even overall. I've read quite a few people defending some of the events as "it's a ruthless world", "survival" etc. but it magically only applies to killing Joel, no other character seems to be able to pull their weight and tie loose ends, everyone's giving out second chances like candy here. Doesn't go well with the entire "we will make this as bleak as possible to prove a point" approach.

    You know, stuff like building the entire plot around an NPC who I was forced to kill in the first game and who pulled a knife on me and now the game makes a cheap appeal to emotions that falls flat on its face while destroying the wonderful ambiguity of the first plot. It really feels amateurish as even said NPC doctor isn't too fleshed out. Couldn't it be the family or friends of Marlene who we outright shot in a cutscene not to leave loose ends (ironic, since he was chased down by a character randomly ham-fisted into all of this)?

    I'll sum it up this way, as I wrote roo much again:

    Whenever the game wants something to happen, it'll go for the most ham-fisted approach possible and try to shock you along the way to cover it up. Whenever it doesn't want something to happen, it'll do the same by making the characters act like idiots again and again and cover it up with shock value, like the theatre fight that still makes me laugh because it's so overdone. The outcome: Abby lets Ellie live for a second time. Tommy survives a headshot. Ok. Manny doesn't survive a headshot. Jesse doesn't either. But those characters might as well never be in the game as they're simply placeholders. Tommy is invincible overall and has to be alive to force Ellie into chasing Abby, despite being hesitant about it himself but in the end he's openly aggressive about it.

    Quite a few examples that you simply cannot not notice precisely because the writing of 1 was so razor sharp. It's weird you don't remember as everything was so memorable. I think it'll be more obvious on a second playthrough. The characters were overall too poorly written to make me care. Lev had the most potential so I was hoping for more but all of this was just a 10h sidequest.

    It's nor really dissecting or looking for flaws, looking for flaws would be the one example I have given like Ellie wasting time to play guitar/sing making noise in a hostile city full of infected and warring factions. But I can suspend my disbelief on stuff like that.

    On some of the rest, not so much. The game has too big boots to fill, I can't bring myself to pull punches on obvious poor writing.
     
  11. BenjiSayers

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 13, 2006

    Posts: 2,966

    Saw this on the twitter but... Do you think it would have been better for this game to be about Abby in nearly the entirety? You could properly start her story off from the events of the first game and flesh out her character/perspective and the people around her. Then maybe bring Joel and Ellie in at towards the end. Joel's death could potentially the cliff hanger for that game. A 3rd game where you bounce between the two in the kind of revenge cycle they tried in this game but now you have a better grasp on both sides.

    Abby's character isn't an inherently bad one, it is just poorly written. There are moments in this game where can kind of connect with her but it's always either right before or after they've ham fisted a 'shock' story point so you end up not caring at all.
     
  12. Amatsubu

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 8, 2012

    Posts: 2,848

    Absolutely. A less ridiculous backstory and some proper fleshing out would help a great deal. Just make her looks sensible for the setting, apparently Nadine or Tess don't look strong enough for Druckmann.

    I'd totally play the entire game as Abby if it was well done, even ending on a cliffhanger. It'd still be better than a game that doesn't know what it wants to be and has glaring writing problems.
     
  13. cu3ed

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 26, 2006

    Posts: 10,623

    Location: Belfast

    I dont see any writing way out of what happens thats out of you control to an NPC character in a previous game. Thats jsut completely dumb stupid and lazy writing. Its bad enough that jsut went for a straight up revenge story that made no sense and had no real conclusion.
    Thats like the next Bond filming being about the Daughter of one of those guys that falls off the roof in the background explosions with a Whelen scream being Bonds foe.
     
  14. Nexus18

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 4, 2009

    Posts: 23,593

    Please stop using your brain people!!!!!
     
  15. Raymond Lin

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Oct 20, 2002

    Posts: 65,580

    Location: Wish i was in .Lethal's house

    Watching the Take On Me bit, I think the actual playing with the tabs and picking are actually correct! The amount of detail in this is astounding.
     
  16. Nexus18

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 4, 2009

    Posts: 23,593

    [​IMG]

    :D

    Shame they didn't put the same attention to detail into the story as well :p

    EDIT:

    In stitches right now

     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
  17. mid_gen

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Dec 20, 2004

    Posts: 9,729

    Well, I've just finished the game, and for me it was just as epic as the first.

    My only real complaints are :

    1) It's too long. There's not enough variety in the gameplay to support such a long narrative, and towards the end I just blitzed through sections so I could see out the story.

    2) The pacing wobbles at times. The whole bringing the game to a head at the halfway point with a series of big reveals, and then boom, you're back sat waiting to find out what happens. I get the idea, but it made me want to rush through the Abby sections to get back to the Aquarium and see how it plays out.

    When I was about 3/4 of the way through I was starting to think I'd have been happier finishing the game at the halfway point, and having the Abby story as a DLC....but as I realized it was more than a little diversionary explanation, rather it was weaving the stories of Ellie and Abby together for the big finish, I changed my mind.

    I thought Abby's character was great in the end, I'm they took the time to explain why she ended up killing Joel, and really exploring the big finish of TLOU1 (that Joel is a selfish murderous psycho) by telling the story of the people he murdered....loved it.

    I thought it made a nice change to have a female soldier actually look like they can kick the ass they are depicted doing....I have much more of a problem with this slip of a girl Ellie just straight up assassinating her way through hordes of massive soldiers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
  18. Amatsubu

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 8, 2012

    Posts: 2,848


    We do actually agree on some of those.

    My main complaints are below, as promised, copied some parts:

    1)Practically all characters are underdeveloped, some do absolutely nothing for the story just to randomly die and never be mentioned again. The number of placeholder characters is astounding. Abby and her cookie-cutter crew are a prime example. It's hard to feel her pain when she's so underdeveloped and her suffering relegated to some flashbacks. She seems just like a plot device to get Joel out of the picture as soon as possible, as evidenced in the rushed prologue full of lucky coincidences. Even Ellie doesn't get much development here, except some weird remorse cutscenes when she had already cruelly murdered dozens of people. The WLF and Seraphites are mostly background white noise. Lev was the most interesting but still fell flat.

    2)The way the plot operates is ridiculous, when it wants to push something it'll just do it in an unearned, ham-fisted way, for example by making characters behave like idiots, and use some shock value to cover it up. The comical theatre fight, for example, after which Ellie gets to live a SECOND time after murdering Abby's friends. What was Abby hoping for? She didn't kill her off the first time because that'd make her like Joel. No matter that she's just brutally tortured a man who had saved her. Ellie has similar problems finishing her off, seems the "survival of the fittest" trope only works for killing Joel, no other character can pull their weight and finish the job. Everyone's giving out second chances like candy. Until the very end. Hard to take this seriously considering the setting and how careful the characters were in 1.

    3)The revenge motive is weak and underhanded, it's like basing an action flick on a relative of a random bloke killed by the main char in a shoot-out. It can be done but it's absolutely shoddy writing and I can't take it seriously. I genuinely tried shooting the doctor in the leg, besides he pulled a knife on me:p On top of that, he's still poorly fleshed out. Instead of making a 10h dlc inconsequntial to the main plot, they should've spent more time on Abby researching his work, maybe even finding someone to continue it and try to catch Ellie. Stupid idea but still better than this hack job.

    4)The ending that continues the game's favourite tactic mentioned in point 2. What was the message? Was it a teenager-level trope of "revenge doesn't solve anything"? "Cycle of vengeance?" I think I'm too stupid for this. Ellie spends all this time, leaving her family and killing dozens of people again and a short Joel flashback makes her not finish the job again. She's spurred on by Tommy, who survives a headshot unlike Jesse and Manny (obviously) and holds her to some godforsaken promise. It's preposterous. Doesn't she think about her family? Even if they really went with something as shallow as those tropes, the only way to break the cycle of vengeance was to kill Abby and Lev on the spot, so that they can't track down her or her family should Abby have a change of heart. It'd also be way less cliché. Wouldn't it be better to show her lose herself in vengeance, seeing as the devs have a pretty nonsensical boner for violence and it's consequence in this game that's also nor properly researched?

    5)Overreliance on flashbacks and jumping around, most of those are fan service (pretty good, though). It breaks the narrative and makes it seem like the game uses them because the threadbare revenge narrative is simply to weak to hold its own and make the characters flesh themselves out during their actions in the present.

    That'd be most. I'm really not impressed with the writing in this. Graphics, some locations, some conversations and stuff, absolutely. But the writing itself is subpar at best.
     
  19. Chuk_Chuk

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 12, 2014

    Posts: 1,320

    Erm what:confused:. You do realise that isn't what strong women/female soldiers look like right? or did you choose to ignore how unrealistic it is?
     
  20. Amatsubu

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 8, 2012

    Posts: 2,848

    What do you mean? That's precisely how strong women look. After years of SAA:D She's obviously been scavenging everywhere for steroids and following a careful diet, perfect setting for this build, considering she had problems finding equipment to amputate an arm.