The Marvels

[Grim5]

It's not because it's woke. It's not because it's woman lead roles.. For me it's because I don't really like those characters. They aren't really very interesting. Captain marvel was so bad. I didn't even finish it. It's one of the few newer ones I gave a try to.

If s film is bad it's bad. There isn't always some gender race whatever reason for it. Sometimes... It's just bad.

Pretty much

Captain marvel as a character is boring because it's a blatant rip off of Superman and the character has no weaknesses, and in the marvel movies Captain marvel was written to be an emotionless pole, seriously watching paint dry is more entertaining than watching Brie Larsen die inside having to read the lines they gave her. Apart from being as entertaining as a wet fart, the character in the newest movie was also written to be a genocidal maniac with no remorse, again no emotion and no inner thought.

I'm not very familiar with the Monica character so I have nothing much to say

The last character from the movie is cringe worthy, Kamala Khan. I'm sorry guys but I just don't find watching fat, unathletic people player super heroes, it looks so bad - imagine in the next Spider-Man they will get Happy Harold to put on a spiderman suit, can't wait to watch his special movie, the fatty jiggle web spin!

 

[Gray2233]

Pretty much

Captain marvel as a character is boring because it's a blatant rip off of Superman and the character has no weaknesses, and in the marvel movies Captain marvel was written to be an emotionless pole, seriously watching paint dry is more entertaining than watching Brie Larsen die inside having to read the lines they gave her. Apart from being as entertaining as a wet fart, the character in the newest movie was also written to be a genocidal maniac with no remorse, again no emotion and no inner thought.

I'm not very familiar with the Monica character so I have nothing much to say

The last character from the movie is cringe worthy, Kamala Khan. I'm sorry guys but I just don't find watching fat, unathletic people player super heroes, it looks so bad - imagine in the next Spider-Man they will get Happy Harold to put on a spiderman suit, can't wait to watch his special movie, the fatty jiggle web spin!

Unless it's for intentional comedic effect, I struggle seeing chonkers run around playing super heroes or elite military types, it looks ridiculous IMO and makes no sense whatsoever.

That said, the "woke" elements while tiresome aren't enough to put me off a show/movie if it's generally well done and isn't too in your face. I can get past it, I did with Doom Patrol which I mostly very much enjoyed. The problem with "The Marvels" is the fact they've hired a bunch of unlikeable/questionable women to play heroes nobody cares about on the back of superhero fatigue.

Endgame was aptly named, and I was sick of Marvel prior par one or two things.

 

[Nitefly]

Thanks for your response @Apex - I’ll respond to the below post specifically as there is a lot of overlap, but I do agree that people should relate to the character as a human if they are well written. However as per my Lara Croft example below I think it’s understandable that people have negative perceptions of certain characters / genres.

Because Margot Robbie in the Barbie Movie was relatable? What about all those Romance films and Rom Coms aimed at women with "relatable" lead actress.

This is as an excuse to not have women looking attractive in films aimed at men because of the Male gaze. It has nothing to do with whether or not women can relate to the character, because I'm quite confident that the majority of films aimed at women have beautiful women as the lead character and it doesn't hamper women relating to those characters. Yet it some how matters in SH films?
As for the hyper athleticism. Thats just a part of superhero films and action flicks. If women can't relate to that, then there is no point in making SH or action films aimed at women.


Also I love the fact that apparently men are the only ones who can relate to a character that is superior to themselves but somehow Women can't relate because they are what, envious?

I didn’t say women cannot relate to the characters. I said that characters in the MCU (particularly of old) are inherently less relatable to women because of their character types. I also definitely didn’t say, nor suggest, that this is because women are envious.

But, I would suggest that some women are dismissive of bombastic, athletic female characters that are blatantly designed and cast to appeal to men in films that are blatantly designed to appeal to men.

In relation to your point on ‘pretty women in films that are designed to appeal to women’, yes, I do think there is a subtle difference between other genres and SH films, because of the perception that these women (and films) are designed to appeal to men.

Here’s a really good example of what I’m referring to: if you asked a random selection of women to (i) name character traits associated with Lara Croft and (ii) confirm whether they found her an interesting character, I think many of them would say all say ‘boobs’ and ‘bimbo’ to the first question and ‘no’ to the second. This in in spite of the reboot series trying very hard to shake off those 1990s, Angelina Jolie ‘gamer babe’ tropes and showing Lara more as a smart independent woman.

Finally… you did watch Barbie, right…?! I did double take at your Robbie Margot comment, since the film specifically addresses negative body image caused by Barbie and goes even further to poke fun at Robbie Margot playing Barbie whilst simultaneously preaching about female empowerment (as a 4th wall break in the film). I do know what you were getting at, but probably not the ideal example since the film pretty much makes all the points I’m making in this thread

 

[Loosecannon]

It is very clear reading this thread that some people are either commenting on the film even though they haven't seen it or there are other agenda's going on for them for whatever reason. Pretty much the same as across the internet. Oh the fun of slating a film that you aren't even interested in. I think the audience scores at 84% tell a very different story to what a few vocal people are saying here.

 

[VincentHanna]

I'm sure Neil79 will eventually fast forward through it and declare it was ****.

 

[ColdAsIce]

What would pandering to men look like, in your opinion?

Give me a Gambit movie set in New Orleans or a rogue movie with the actual back story from the x-men comic / cartoon from the 90s.

 

[Bigpig]

I’m actually starting to like Brie. Even she knows the character was **** and don’t tell me she isn’t pretty.

You know if maybe she had played a character like, I dunno know, let me think about it, hold up, I got it, A character like Valkyrie she might have been a hit.

As for Kamala. 100% not the actress and don’t care about her looks. Buttttttttt

Self insert into a comic that failed multiple times.

Lead in video game that failed.

TV show. Nobody watch it lol

Let’s throw her into a film with two other characters that no one else likes.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

It is very clear reading this thread that some people are either commenting on the film even though they haven't seen it or there are other agenda's going on for them for whatever reason. Pretty much the same as across the internet. Oh the fun of slating a film that you aren't even interested in. I think the audience scores at 84% tell a very different story to what a few vocal people are saying here.

I agree, most of those are new accounts voting though, but you keep on being you and championing this garbage untill Disney collapses.

 

[IvanDobskey]

This is seriously bombing at the box office, no surprise there

 

[Begbie]

Thanks for your response @Apex - I’ll respond to the below post specifically as there is a lot of overlap, but I do agree that people should relate to the character as a human if they are well written. However as per my Lara Croft example below I think it’s understandable that people have negative perceptions of certain characters / genres.



I didn’t say women cannot relate to the characters. I said that characters in the MCU (particularly of old) are inherently less relatable to women because of their character types. I also definitely didn’t say, nor suggest, that this is because women are envious.

But, I would suggest that some women are dismissive of bombastic, athletic female characters that are blatantly designed and cast to appeal to men in films that are blatantly designed to appeal to men.

In relation to your point on ‘pretty women in films that are designed to appeal to women’, yes, I do think there is a subtle difference between other genres and SH films, because of the perception that these women (and films) are designed to appeal to men.

Here’s a really good example of what I’m referring to: if you asked a random selection of women to (i) name character traits associated with Lara Croft and (ii) confirm whether they found her an interesting character, I think many of them would say all say ‘boobs’ and ‘bimbo’ to the first question and ‘no’ to the second. This in in spite of the reboot series trying very hard to shake off those 1990s, Angelina Jolie ‘gamer babe’ tropes and showing Lara more as a smart independent woman.

Finally… you did watch Barbie, right…?! I did double take at your Robbie Margot comment, since the film specifically addresses negative body image caused by Barbie and goes even further to poke fun at Robbie Margot playing Barbie whilst simultaneously preaching about female empowerment (as a 4th wall break in the film). I do know what you were getting at, but probably not the ideal example since the film pretty much makes all the points I’m making in this thread

Do women in the marvels appeal to women?

As in if the previous movies didn't appeal to women, have Disney fixed this and they do now?

 

[Rising]

The last character from the movie is cringe worthy, Kamala Khan. I'm sorry guys but I just don't find watching fat, unathletic people player super heroes, it looks so bad - imagine in the next Spider-Man they will get Happy Harold to put on a spiderman suit, can't wait to watch his special movie, the fatty jiggle web spin!

And you wonder why so many young girls have self image issues…

 

[C Kent]

And you wonder why so many young girls have self image issues…

yes, its because there are no fat female superheroes.. you got him! Im so glad we've got loads of tubby chunks of lard running around as male role models in these movies to help young boys with 'self image issues'.

 

[Nitefly]

Do women in the marvels appeal to women?

As in if the previous movies didn't appeal to women, have Disney fixed this and they do now?

Fair question. I don’t know. It’s very hard to say. At the moment just about everyone (including me) is jaded when it comes to films being sensitive to diversity matters and all western audiences are viewing things more cynically than ever before. So there is a lens of scepticism with any attempt to appeal to women.

I think the question that’s more in line with my sentiments is: are the characters in the Marvels relatively devoid of some male-appeasing tropes that are off putting women? I think so, yes. But perhaps they are too tailored to the point of being sterile.

As per my own review, I thought the main characters were atypical and that was refreshing (it’s definitely its ‘own thing’). But I wouldn’t go so far as to say that anything was outstanding. Characters still have to be interesting on their own accord.

I watched the early Marvel films a year or so ago and that’s partly informing my position because Black Widow was soooo sexualised, in her costume and how she was filmed. Go back and watch those early films and you’ll see what I mean. This clip is junky but importantly it’s short and addresses the point:

As an aside, I’ve picked up on several people mentioning whether women in roles are attractive or not, which I think stems from my earlier comment along the lines of ‘abnormal beauty is unappealing to women’, which I now realise was poorly worded as that’s not really what I meant. I had meant to say that characters have an emphasis on their sexual beauty at the expense of their character, as per the Black Widow comments above, or they are mostly there as a side character love interest for the ‘main character’. And that is what makes them less relatable / likeable to some women.

I think Wonder Woman in the recent DC films was a well balanced character in these regards. She is obviously glowingly beautiful, but it doesn’t dominate over her righteousness, good nature and awkward naivety that make her likeable on the merits of her character (at least in the first film).

I just asked my wife, who likes the MCU, for her thoughts on the Mavels having read my draft of this post and she’s added:

‘I enjoyed the Marvels. It was nice that they weren’t all hot women in spandex like Charlie’s Angels. I like Captain Marvel; she’s a little bland but likeable. I prefer Wonder Woman. I’m not rushing back to watch the film but I enjoyed it. 7/10.

As for Black Widow, that felt like a side character that was there to look good. I’ve heard it’s OK but I haven’t seen the Black Widow film.’

I’m not sure that adds anything but it’s an opinion from a woman at least

 

[IvanDobskey]

The big problem is, these strong female characters don't appeal to anyone but a very tiny demographic.

Most of the audience for marvel / comic book stuff are men. Yet they are pitching at women. The handful of women who watch this stuff, actually do it for the buff masculine characters

So who is left to actually pay to go see the marvels? A few blue haired land whales and hard-line super fans who will watch any old dross with a marvel sticker on it.

Surprise surprise, it's bombing.

To be honest, I'm starting to think that making a profit is not high on Disney's priority list. It's all about virtue signalling, identity politics and pushing their agenda. They are being subsidized by massive organisations like black rock. So they can keep on pumping out this garbage with little worry about the financial implications.

 

[Begbie]

Fair question. I don’t know. It’s very hard to say. At the moment just about everyone (including me) is jaded when it comes to films being sensitive to diversity matters and all western audiences are viewing things more cynically than ever before. So there is a lens of scepticism with any attempt to appeal to women.

I think the question that’s more in line with my sentiments is: are the characters in the Marvels relatively devoid of some male-appeasing tropes that are off putting women? I think so, yes. But perhaps they are too tailored to the point of being sterile.

As per my own review, I thought the main characters were atypical and that was refreshing (it’s definitely its ‘own thing’). But I wouldn’t go so far as to say that anything was outstanding. Characters still have to be interesting on their own accord.

I watched the early Marvel films a year or so ago and that’s partly informing my position because Black Widow was soooo sexualised, in her costume and how she was filmed. Go back and watch those early films and you’ll see what I mean. This clip is junky but importantly it’s short and addresses the point:

As an aside, I’ve picked up on several people mentioning whether women in roles are attractive or not, which I think stems from my earlier comment along the lines of ‘abnormal beauty is unappealing to women’, which I now realise was poorly worded as that’s not really what I meant. I had meant to say that characters have an emphasis on their sexual beauty at the expense of their character, as per the Black Widow comments above, or they are mostly there as a side character love interest for the ‘main character’. And that is what makes them less relatable / likeable to some women.

I think Wonder Woman in the recent DC films was a well balanced character in these regards. She is obviously glowingly beautiful, but it doesn’t dominate over her righteousness, good nature and awkward naivety that make her likeable on the merits of her character (at least in the first film).

I just asked my wife, who likes the MCU, for her thoughts on the Mavels having read my draft of this post and she’s added:

‘I enjoyed the Marvels. It was nice that they weren’t all hot women in spandex like Charlie’s Angels. I like Captain Marvel; she’s a little bland but likeable. I prefer Wonder Woman. I’m not rushing back to watch the film but I enjoyed it. 7/10.

As for Black Widow, that felt like a side character that was there to look good. I’ve heard it’s OK but I haven’t seen the Black Widow film.’

I’m not sure that adds anything but it’s an opinion from a woman at least

I actually thought you were a woman until this.

 

[IvanDobskey]

I actually thought you were a woman until this.

He could still be a woman

 

[SpellowHouse]

Fair question. I don’t know. It’s very hard to say. At the moment just about everyone (including me) is jaded when it comes to films being sensitive to diversity matters and all western audiences are viewing things more cynically than ever before. So there is a lens of scepticism with any attempt to appeal to women.

I think the question that’s more in line with my sentiments is: are the characters in the Marvels relatively devoid of some male-appeasing tropes that are off putting women? I think so, yes. But perhaps they are too tailored to the point of being sterile.

As per my own review, I thought the main characters were atypical and that was refreshing (it’s definitely its ‘own thing’). But I wouldn’t go so far as to say that anything was outstanding. Characters still have to be interesting on their own accord.

I watched the early Marvel films a year or so ago and that’s partly informing my position because Black Widow was soooo sexualised, in her costume and how she was filmed. Go back and watch those early films and you’ll see what I mean. This clip is junky but importantly it’s short and addresses the point:

As an aside, I’ve picked up on several people mentioning whether women in roles are attractive or not, which I think stems from my earlier comment along the lines of ‘abnormal beauty is unappealing to women’, which I now realise was poorly worded as that’s not really what I meant. I had meant to say that characters have an emphasis on their sexual beauty at the expense of their character, as per the Black Widow comments above, or they are mostly there as a side character love interest for the ‘main character’. And that is what makes them less relatable / likeable to some women.

I think Wonder Woman in the recent DC films was a well balanced character in these regards. She is obviously glowingly beautiful, but it doesn’t dominate over her righteousness, good nature and awkward naivety that make her likeable on the merits of her character (at least in the first film).

I just asked my wife, who likes the MCU, for her thoughts on the Mavels having read my draft of this post and she’s added:

‘I enjoyed the Marvels. It was nice that they weren’t all hot women in spandex like Charlie’s Angels. I like Captain Marvel; she’s a little bland but likeable. I prefer Wonder Woman. I’m not rushing back to watch the film but I enjoyed it. 7/10.

As for Black Widow, that felt like a side character that was there to look good. I’ve heard it’s OK but I haven’t seen the Black Widow film.’

I’m not sure that adds anything but it’s an opinion from a woman at least

Let's use the term "woke" for convenience.

The problem here is that the majority of Marvel fans grew up reading very un-woke books. Superheroes are not woke. Both the men and women are largely highly sexualised. And the fans are people who really don't appreciate change being forced on them. They want the characters they grew up with. It's a question of the target audience....something that Disney seems not to appreciate. The worst possible thing they could have done is make a film using a very inexperienced woke director (I mean woke in that she was a woke choice but also well known for her woke opinions too). Add to that three either unpopular or little known lead characters, and you end up with a disaster.

I think women who complain about sexualisation in films like this are just singling themselves out to be ignored by the Marvel fans.

Also, people like Johanson, did she not understand the audience either?

I agree with many of the concepts of woke. But there is such a thing as trying to move too fast. All Disney has managed to do is enrage their target audience.

 

[flea.rider]

ok i did watch this last night ..kodi ... and i have to say .. the miss match of characters was bad .. you had a do everything a do something and a Disney princess ?? did the expect this to work ?
i'm sure they were trying to pull of a zack snyder's justice league but there was no oomph just silliness ..singing planet ?? shame really .. and the little one didn't get to keep both gauntlets ...

 

[tuckenator]

ok i did watch this last night ..kodi ... and i have to say .. the miss match of characters was bad .. you had a do everything a do something and a Disney princess ?? did the expect this to work ?
i'm sure they were trying to pull of a zack snyder's justice league but there was no oomph just silliness ..singing planet ?? shame really .. and the little one didn't get to keep both gauntlets ...

Agreed, the film just didn't mesh together well. Marvel just can't build character arcs anymore.

Also, I assumed Kamala needed the bangle to use her powers, but obviously not!

 

[fez]

The big problem is, these strong female characters don't appeal to anyone but a very tiny demographic.

The big problem with strong female characters is they don't know how to write or cast them half the time. We have had strong female characters for decades. They aren't new. What is new is this strange dichotomy that masculine men are toxic but then we are told to celebrate "strong women" who behave exactly like these men. We are shown a 120lb wet woman throwing around 220lb men like they are rag dolls and told that this is normal and realistic. Its not even "look, she has super powers guys" its "look, shes a strong women who is just as capable as any man". Black widow kind of gets away with it but fundamentally she isn't a leading character in the MCU. Her film was awful and I don't think much of the blame can sit with Johannsen.

They are so obsessed with strong women being strong women that they can't understand the core idea that you have to make characters have personality, flaws and nuance. They don't seem to understand that the only people who like super on the nose dialogue about how wonderful women are or how rubbish men are happen to be the sort of people who have no real interest in the film beyond its social commentary credentials.