*** The Official Astronomy & Universe Thread ***

Associate
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I am a most pragmatic man, much like you it seems.

But I believe in this universe anything is possible and probably happens somewhere. It's too big a place.

Accepted theories are all we have. Can anything escape a black hale........no one truly knows..........but why can't it?

Gravity too strong?

Jets HAVE been theorised to have come from the black hole.
Light has been theorised to never escape a black hole

It's all down to maths and equations at the end of the day but I'll tell you something, this theory will become accepted until someone comes along to disprove it.

Einstein was in my opinion the last great mind to unravel the mysteries of the universe in his mind. SH is the next man to be popular/respected enough for academics to listen.

But if you believe in Hawking Radiation how can you also believe nothing can escape?

Jb
 
Caporegime
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I am a most pragmatic man, much like you it seems.

But I believe in this universe anything is possible and probably happens somewhere. It's too big a place.

Accepted theories are all we have. Can anything escape a black hale........no one truly knows..........but why can't it?

Gravity too strong?

Jets HAVE been theorised to have come from the black hole.
Light has been theorised to never escape a black hole

It's all down to maths and equations at the end of the day but I'll tell you something, this theory will become accepted until someone comes along to disprove it.

Einstein was in my opinion the last great mind to unravel the mysteries of the universe in his mind. SH is the next man to be popular/respected enough for academics to listen.

But if you believe in Hawking Radiation how can you also believe nothing can escape?

Jb

It's an illusion, Michael. A trick is something a whore does for money.
 
Soldato
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Accepted theories are all we have. Can anything escape a black hale........no one truly knows..........but why can't it?

Gravity too strong?

Jets HAVE been theorised to have come from the black hole.
Light has been theorised to never escape a black hole


But if you believe in Hawking Radiation how can you also believe nothing can escape?

Jb

I do agree with the fact that we certainly don't know it all yet, but so far we do know that because of the gravitational field of the things nothing can escape them once it is inside the Event Horizon... Polar jets are formed from the accretion disk which is outside of the Event Horizon so they were not inside the black hole, and haven't escaped from it, but from the matter surrounding it... Hawking radiation is also from outside the horizon...

I don't see why I can't believe in Hawking Radiation and that nothing can escape, as they are two separate things. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.
 
Associate
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I do understand but I think you're mistaken.

Jets are said to emanate from the disk and BH itself.

Hawking radiation comes from the black hole hence why he says they can eventually 'evaporate'.

Oh and I have no idea what Magnolia is on about :confused:
 
Soldato
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I'm wondering if you actually understand how Hawking Radiation actually is produced, as that paragraph doesn't and just tells me stuff I already knew.

The strong gravitational field etc of the black hole produces the virtual particle pairs I have already explained. These sometimes appear just outside the event horizon, and one is pulled in and the other escapes, which is what HR is.
 
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Hawking also described how he discovered that particles could slowly leak out of black holes and release energy. A miniature black hole of the mass of a mountain could generate enough power to supply the world’s energy needs. However, the energy would be difficult to harness as the power could not be maintained in a power station. It would drop through the floor and end up at the center of the Earth.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news156450506.html#jCp

slowly leak out of black holes and release energy






Hawking radiation is black body radiation that is predicted to be emitted by black holes, due to quantum effects near the event horizon. It is named after the physicist Stephen Hawking, who provided a theoretical argument for its existence in 1974,[1] and sometimes also after Jacob Bekenstein, who predicted that black holes should have a finite, non-zero temperature and entropy.[2] Hawking's work followed his visit to Moscow in 1973 where the Soviet scientists Yakov Zeldovich and Alexei Starobinsky showed him that according to the quantum mechanical uncertainty principle, rotating black holes should create and emit particles.[3] Hawking radiation reduces the mass and the energy of the black hole and is therefore also known as black hole evaporation. Because of this, black holes that lose more mass than they gain through other means are expected to shrink and ultimately vanish. Micro black holes (MBHs) are predicted to be larger net emitters of radiation than larger black holes and should shrink and dissipate faster.


emitted by black holes








In 1975 Hawking published a shocking result: if one takes quantum theory into account, it seems that black holes are not quite black! Instead, they should glow slightly with "Hawking radiation", consisting of photons, neutrinos, and to a lesser extent all sorts of massive particles. This has never been observed, since the only black holes we have evidence for are those with lots of hot gas falling into them, whose radiation would completely swamp this tiny effect. Indeed, if the mass of a black hole is M solar masses, Hawking predicted it should glow like a blackbody of temperature

6 × 10-8/M kelvins,
so only for very small black holes would this radiation be significant. Still, the effect is theoretically very interesting, and folks working on understanding how quantum theory and gravity fit together have spent a lot of energy trying to understand it and its consequences. The most drastic consequence is that a black hole, left alone and unfed, should radiate away its mass, slowly at first but then faster and faster as it shrinks, finally dying in a blaze of glory like a hydrogen bomb. However, the total lifetime of a black hole of M solar masses works out to be

1071 M3 seconds
so don't wait around for a big one to give up the ghost. (People have looked for the death of small ones that could have formed in the big bang, but they haven't seen any.)

How does this work? Well, you'll find Hawking radiation explained this way in a lot of "pop-science" treatments:

Virtual particle pairs are constantly being created near the horizon of the black hole, as they are everywhere. Normally, they are created as a particle-antiparticle pair and they quickly annihilate each other. But near the horizon of a black hole, it's possible for one to fall in before the annihilation can happen, in which case the other one escapes as Hawking radiation.


To summarise black holes are neither black or inescapable

Jb
 
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In fact in the overview section it explains that :)

You mean where it says

"Hawking radiation is black body radiation that is predicted to be emitted by black holes, due to quantum effects near the event horizon"

As it says, it's emitted by black holes because of what's going on in the event horizon, not emitted from it.

Unless I'm really thick (very possible), I truly believe your only seeing what you want to see though could be the same for me but I've seen several documentaries regarding this.
 
Soldato
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And the video, just once again explaining stuff I know. The particles aren't created inside the Event Horizon, therefore one of them can escape, if they 'popped' up inside the horizon they would not be able to escape.
 
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You misunderstand Hawking Radiation theory if you interpret it as "matter escaping from past the event horizon". Hawking radiation is, very simply put, when the "residual energy" associated around the black hole creates virtual pairs (allowed by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle) of particles at the event horizon - the gravitational field is so strong at this point in space-time that one of the 'particles' of the virtual pair is pulled into the singularity and the other accelerates away at near the speed of light (momentum conservation allows this to happen).

The net effect of this is that there is an overall loss of the total mass energy of the black hole over time, thus meaning that the black hole will eventually "evaporate" away; although the predicted time scale is rather large, ~10^30 years or greater if I recall correctly.

At no point does HR theory suggest that matter is literally escaping from within the event horizon of the black hole - that would violate general and special relativities, which are incredibly strong theories and have withstood every attempt to break them thus far.
 
Soldato
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Interesting stuff the last posts, I really enjoy them. I drove by Abdera today, home town of Democritus, the guy who conceived the idea of multiple universes and the atom theory...mind boggling stuff for someone 2500 years ago, I was stunned.
 
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