*** The Official Playstation 4 (PS4) Thread ***

[ps3ud0]

People who want an excuse to flame the Xbox it seems.

Yes thats it exactly, this hasnt happened regularly on a MS biased subforum at all in the past . Im amazed at the butthurt this console release has caused, its quite funny and pathetic all at the same time...

Using the phone market as an example... Apple don't announce the full specs of their iPhones however they are arguably the best on the market. In fact the iPhone is usually less powerful than a similar priced android phone, but specs alone don't mean that the product is better; there are many other factors to consider.

Isnt that a poor analogy when its well known iOS is far more lighter on resources than Android is and so why its doesnt need as beefier specs to run just aswell (and in some cases better)?

ps3ud0

 

[Davey_Pitch]

Yes thats it exactly, this hasnt happened regularly on a MS biased subforum at all in the past . Im amazed at the butthurt this console release has caused, its quite funny and pathetic all at the same time...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people don't have the right to point out the PS4 is a more powerful console, because it quite simply is. There are some though that seem to go out of their way to remind everyone of the fact, which is a little annoying when the consoles aren't even released yet and we haven't even had any cross platform games to compare.

 

[spoffle]

Specs are important to a point, but like you say, it's all about the games. If someone were to ask me now, which was more powerful between the Xbox 360 and the PS3, I honestly couldn't answer with 100% certainty. That's because I never cared enough about the specs to look into it. I think the same about the Xbox One and the PS4. Yes I know the PS4 is more powerful, but I think in reality the differences will be so minimal I really won't care.

I think the reason it's coming up a lot more now is because the specs are very comparable.

It's quite difficult to get a meaningful comparison between the 360 and PS3 because the 360 has a more powerful GPU, and the PS3 has a more powerful CPU, as well as being on completely different architectures.

So typically, a multi platform release would look better by a fair amount on the Xbox 360 compared to the PS3 because of the better GPU and the relative ease to program for.

However, this time around the hardware is directly comparable, and it's very easy to quantify the difference, where the PS4 is quite a bit more powerful, having 50% more graphics power than the Xbox One, 8GB of GDDR5 useable for games compared to 5GB DDR3 on the Xbox One and having double the memory bandwidth, will make for some potentially large differences in graphical quality between first party games on each system.

Again, it won't matter so much if you're not interested in one of the consoles, but I do think people will see a difference in the way games look, and I do think it's a bit odd that MS chose to go with the specs they did.

 

[Kohaashi]

Isnt that a poor analogy when its well known iOS is far more lighter on resources than Android is and so why its doesnt need as beefier specs to run just aswell (and in some cases better)?

ps3ud0

Ok, maybe not the best, but the point still remains that there are a number of factors to consider. The Xbox One is said to be 10x more powerful than the 360 which if true is a massive jump anyway, will we see the difference in the extra power the ps4 may have, and what is the real potential of the cloud? I think it's too soon to say.

Also, whilst I'm not a fan of the thumb stick placement on the PS pads, it's nice to see that the PS4 pad appears to be bigger than the PS3's. Can't wait to get some hands-on time with both the XB1 and PS4.

 

[ps3ud0]

Ok, maybe not the best, but the point still remains that there are a number of factors to consider. The Xbox One is said to be 10x more powerful than the 360 which if true is a massive jump anyway, will we see the difference in the extra power the ps4 may have, and what is the real potential of the cloud? I think it's too soon to say.

Perhaps a better analogy is having two engines, one more powerful (PS4) but in a FWD car, while the other isnt as powerful (XO) but is in a 4WD car.

Off the line its going to be close but likely the 4WD (DDR3) will be able to stay ahead initially compared to the FWD (GDDR5) as it can apply the power better, but ultimately over the distance the FWDs superior power will allow it to catch up and eek ahead, how far this gap is depends on how good the mechanic is at tuning and if hes one thats jack of all trades (a multiplat developer) or a specialist with that particular transmission (an exclusive developer)...

Think that covers most of the obvious bases, Im sure someone will mention that one car has a more rounder steering wheel than the other or something to cover the controllers

For now the cloud is one of those urban myths regards getting more power out using snake oil or something IMHO or a dump valve exhaust, makes it sound far more impressive than it really is

ps3ud0

 

[RoboCod]

Using the phone market as an example... Apple don't announce the full specs of their iPhones however they are arguably the best on the market. In fact the iPhone is usually less powerful than a similar priced android phone, but specs alone don't mean that the product is better; there are many other factors to consider.

Oh come on don't go opening that can of worms. Anyone who is anyone who knows anything about phones knows that isn't really true and that Apple just have half their audience captive through PR and marketing strategy. That doesn't make it the best product.

 

[RoboCod]

Specs are important to a point, but like you say, it's all about the games. If someone were to ask me now, which was more powerful between the Xbox 360 and the PS3, I honestly couldn't answer with 100% certainty. That's because I never cared enough about the specs to look into it. I think the same about the Xbox One and the PS4. Yes I know the PS4 is more powerful, but I think in reality the differences will be so minimal I really won't care.

Despite the specs being marginal in difference I doubt there will be that relative difference in the gameplay and graphics of cross platform titles. It won't be of enough difference to bother the casual gamer and the general population of buyers of either platform. The inherent "war" of Xbox vs PS will come down to the most basic distinction for most buyers then, and that is the difference on price. Xbox is going to miss out on a lot of sales against PS4 because it is pricing itself out. So unless they can hurry up with a bundle that does not include the kinect I think they're making a daft move.

A handful of people are choosing either platform on spec. A greater handful of people will be choosing platform on allegiance no doubt

 

[easyrider]

Using the phone market as an example... Apple don't announce the full specs of their iPhones however they are arguably the best on the market.

This is clearly nonsense.

 

[craptakular]

£80 is a lot of difference in price, its like two games difference almost.

 

[Kohaashi]

This is clearly nonsense.

I said arguably the best. Many people would disagree with you. I didn't say 'BEST, FACT!'

Anyhow, we've moved on since then and that is going off topic.

 

[Craterloads]

Watched that speech by Mark Cerny last night and was wondering what he meant when he said that PowerPC architecture was much more powerful than X86. 1st party devs said that X86 is not powerful enough to go into a console, and would prefer the upfront power of the PowerPC?

I always thought X86 was the more powerful platform?

 

[TheVoice]

Reality is, games will probably look the same and play the same on both consoles for the duration of their lifespan.

I'd hope not, if the extra power is there it'd be very lazy of the developers not to make use of it.

 

[Johnnytoxic]

Perhaps a better analogy is having two engines, one more powerful (PS4) but in a FWD car, while the other isnt as powerful (XO) but is in a 4WD car.

Off the line its going to be close but likely the 4WD (DDR3) will be able to stay ahead initially compared to the FWD (GDDR5) as it can apply the power better, but ultimately over the distance the FWDs superior power will allow it to catch up and eek ahead, how far this gap is depends on how good the mechanic is at tuning and if hes one thats jack of all trades (a multiplat developer) or a specialist with that particular transmission (an exclusive developer)...

Think that covers most of the obvious bases, Im sure someone will mention that one car has a more rounder steering wheel than the other or something to cover the controllers

For now the cloud is one of those urban myths regards getting more power out using snake oil or something IMHO or a dump valve exhaust, makes it sound far more impressive than it really is

ps3ud0

What a load of rubbish, your implying the PS4 is going struggle at first because of GDDR5 ? developers will find it harder to get the bandwidth out of DDR3 and that 32MB ESRAM. The XB One set up is the far more complicated of the two.

And the cloud, have you still not seen this is nonsense? The PS4 could easily make non lag computations on their servers if they wanted on a small number of games. They probably won't because it's a load of marketing cobblers.

Please read up before you post nonsense.

 

[ps3ud0]

What a load of rubbish, your implying the PS4 is going struggle at first because of GDDR5 ? developers will find it harder to get the bandwidth out of DDR3 and that 32MB ESRAM. The XB One set up is the far more complicated of the two.

And the cloud, have you still not seen this is nonsense? The PS4 could easily make non lag computations on their servers if they wanted on a small number of games. They probably won't because it's a load of marketing cobblers.

Please read up before you post nonsense.

Please understand my point before you jump to poor assumptions, I was referring more to the latency of the two RAM systems rather than bandwidth. And DDR3 is just a tad faster than GDDR5, thats the offset when you build RAM for bandwidth over response.

Im sure my poor attempt at an analogy could be interpreted in different ways, but doesnt excuse your response, I think I caveated that more than adequately

ps3ud0

 

[Davey_Pitch]

I'd hope not, if the extra power is there it'd be very lazy of the developers not to make use of it.

It will probably come down to time and money rather than laziness, as utilising the extra power will likely add extra developmental time, which has a cost. Assuming the game already looks and runs well enough, I doubt they'd put in the extra work solely for one platform.

 

[Johnnytoxic]

Please understand my point before you jump to poor assumptions, I was referring more to the latency of the two RAM systems rather than bandwidth. And DDR3 is just a tad faster than GDDR5, thats the offset when you build RAM for bandwidth over response.

Im sure my poor attempt at an analogy could be interpreted in different ways, but doesnt excuse your response, I think I caveated that more than adequately

ps3ud0

I'm not a techno wizard but I'm pretty sure a slight latency difference wouldn't give any real world advantage.

My AMD video card seems to be just fine with GDDR5

Also found this little tibbit

"GDDR5 having much higher latency than DDR3 is a myth that's been constantly perpetuated with no source to back it up. Go look up datasheets of the actual chips and you'll see that the absolute latency has always been the same, at around 10ns. It has been around that since DDR1. Since the data rates have been increasing, the latency in clock cycles has increased but the absolute latency has always been the same. Anyone who wants to argue with me should dig through datasheets to back their claims up."

In the end you seem to think if there is any slight difference in memory latency this will somehow give the Xbox One an advantage in its early life cycle. Its quite laughable. Face it there is a pretty big gap this generation and there is no doubt it will show. Either smoother framerates for PS4 or extra particle effects etc.

50% more GPU shaders
Superior memory

I didn't want this either as I was happy with my 360 and their controller. But being a whore for raw power, the PS4 is where its at this time around.

 

[Craterloads]

Please understand my point before you jump to poor assumptions, I was referring more to the latency of the two RAM systems rather than bandwidth. And DDR3 is just a tad faster than GDDR5, thats the offset when you build RAM for bandwidth over response.

Im sure my poor attempt at an analogy could be interpreted in different ways, but doesnt excuse your response, I think I caveated that more than adequately

ps3ud0

To be fair your analogy was poor. Edit. V poor and doesn't even make sense

Yes the PS4 will have the advantage in the long run, BUT it will also have the advantage at launch (if not similar). Would devs prefer the small latency advantage of DDR3 or prefer the speed of GDDR5? I think it's safe to say they would prefer something that they current already use in pretty much all high-end graphic cards rather than a more complex slower arrangement.

 

[ps3ud0]

I'm not a techno wizard but I'm pretty sure latency doesn't mean a great deal in the grand scheme of things.

My AMD video card seems to be just fine with GDDR5

Also found this little tibbit

"GDDR5 having much higher latency than DDR3 is a myth that's been constantly perpetuated with no source to back it up. Go look up datasheets of the actual chips and you'll see that the absolute latency has always been the same, at around 10ns. It has been around that since DDR1. Since the data rates have been increasing, the latency in clock cycles has increased but the absolute latency has always been the same. Anyone who wants to argue with me should dig through datasheets to back their claims up."

To be fair your analogy was poor.

Yes the PS4 will have the advantage in the long run, BUT it will also have the advantage at launch (if not similar). Would devs prefer the small latency advantage of DDR3 or prefer the speed of GDDR5? I think it's safe to say they would prefer something that they current already use in pretty much all high-end graphic cards rather than a more complex slower arrangement.

TBH I was just trying to concoct something that attempted to encompass the differences in the PS4 and XO, I knew it wasnt bulletproof as its quite a few features to consider...

Im well aware of the technical differences though - just putting them into an everyday situation just apparently doesnt work it seems. Perhaps I shouldnt try at 3am in the morning

Jonnytoxic, you got a link for that quote? I know bandwidth is far more important, have a look at my numerous posts on the new console threads

EDIT: Actually now I re-read it, Ive completly messed up the point I was aiming for (more the individual features and how they pertain to a car - not at all what you guys are getting at regards to how they will work across their life cycle)

ps3ud0

 

[Johnnytoxic]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/691087-playstation-4/66534289/748700104

 

[ps3ud0]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/691087-playstation-4/66534289/748700104

2) GDDR5 having much higher latency than DDR3 is a myth that's been constantly perpetuated with no source to back it up. Go look up datasheets of the actual chips and you'll see that the absolute latency has always been the same, at around 10ns. It has been around that since DDR1. Since the data rates have been increasing, the latency in clock cycles has increased but the absolute latency has always been the same. Anyone who wants to argue with me should dig through datasheets to back their claims up.

From Wikipedia: DDR3 PC3-12800 @ IO frequency 800MHz has typical CAS latency 8. This means the absolute latency is 10ns. DDR2 PC2-6400 runs at IO frequency 400MHz, with CAS latency 4. This is also 10 ns.

Here's a typical GDDR5 chip datasheet: http://www.hynix.com/datasheet/pdf/graphics/H5GQ1H24AFR(Rev1.0).pdf

Here is the table showing CAS latency vs frequency: http://i.imgur.com/dnHldht.png (page 43)

The data rates are a factor of 4x faster than the memory clock. So at a typical 5.0Gbps output data rate, the memory runs at 1.25GHz (source: http://i.imgur.com/FEhkHNm.png page 6) and supports CL latency of 15. This is 15/(1.25 GHz) = 12 ns

If Im reading that correctly then it confirms what I said earlier.

I was referring more to the latency of the two RAM systems rather than bandwidth. And DDR3 is just a tad faster than GDDR5, thats the offset when you build RAM for bandwidth over response.

ps3ud0

Dont see the real issue in what I said then looking at your own source

ps3ud0