Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, there is a relatively small shift (overall) on the part of the Republicans (some have shifted but a big chunk has stayed in the same place, median has only moved half a point to the right from 94 to 2017) and the meme doesn't seem to be all that inaccurate at all. I doubt very much the average democrat voter has shifted back towards the centre - certainly haven't noticed much of a shift in the current discourse.
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Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, there is a relatively small shift (overall) on the part of the Republicans (some have shifted but a big chunk has stayed in the same place, median has only moved half a point to the right from 94 to 2017) and the meme doesn't seem to be all that inaccurate at all. I doubt very much the average democrat voter has shifted back towards the centre - certainly haven't noticed much of a shift in the current discourse.
Soldato
[edit] - nvm, anyone this unidimensional is not really debating in good faith.
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Soldato
We're supposed to believe the Republican Party have only moved half a point to the right between 94 and 2017? The Republican Party of 1994 is unrecognisable to the one of 2017. How have the policies of the Democrats shifted 3 points to the left in the same period we're to believe the Republicans have only shifter 0.5 to the right?
Soldato
Which left of centre figures have been branded alt-right?
Soldato
The whole Republican message now is culture wars. That is what they are running on, fear porn turned up to maximum. Anyone who disagrees with them are groomers, child rapists and protectors of child rapists. CRT is being taught to kinder garden children, they are taught to hate their country and they are also being taught to be gay/trans from the time they can crawl. No one does culture wars like the Republicans, they've been doing it for decades, The Great Replacement, nothing scares white people like having their power taken by a brown horde. The Democrats wish they could do culture wars like the Republicans
Exactly.
Either the shift to the right in those charts is under-represented or we have to accept that the Republicans have been as bat-**** crazy as they are right now for the last 30+ years. If that's the case, the scale on those charts is broken.
Not to mention that, from a European perspective, the whole chart needs to be shifted to the right by at least a couple of points anyway. The Democrats moving to a "2" just brings them a bit closer to most centre-ish parties in Europe.
Yes as that's how polling works
Soldato
Has the republican message actually changed though since '94?
Gay rights
Abortion
Fiscal responsibility
Strong law & order
Strong military
Anti immigration
Religion
Etc etc
They seem to stay very consistent on these core values, so where is this "big shift" further right?
People generally tend to think they've stayed the same and it's everyone else that's moved and I doubt it's any different for the Left or Right with both sets watching the other move away and saying "if I'm staying still it must those guys who are moving further away" when it's more likely to be both sides are moving further away, almost as if they're recoiling from one another in a race to see who can move furthest/quickest. It's just another way to divide people and it's working reallllly well right now.
Gay rights
Abortion
Fiscal responsibility
Strong law & order
Strong military
Anti immigration
Religion
Etc etc
They seem to stay very consistent on these core values, so where is this "big shift" further right?
People generally tend to think they've stayed the same and it's everyone else that's moved and I doubt it's any different for the Left or Right with both sets watching the other move away and saying "if I'm staying still it must those guys who are moving further away" when it's more likely to be both sides are moving further away, almost as if they're recoiling from one another in a race to see who can move furthest/quickest. It's just another way to divide people and it's working reallllly well right now.
Soldato
Is that taken from selective polls? All polls? Its not like polling data can't be used to show what suits a particular narrative.
The methodology is clear to see within the poll, additionally The Pew institute are also extremely non bias. Just because the polling shows the left (democrats in this instance) swinging further towards the extreme then the right (republicans) which goes against your own personal opinion doesn't mean the poll is invalidated by 'whataboutism'
No they haven't really, what usually happens is that the left will conflate 2 similar elements, immigration for example, the right are for legal immigration in general (some caveat's obviously) and against illegal immigration in all forms. The left will take the stance of clamping down on illegal immigration and apply that to the both legal and illegal. So a simple sentance of wanting to crack down on illegal immigration will become 'why are you against immigration'.
We've had nonsense like the tea party and Trump, that's perhaps shifted *some* of the voters, the thing is that sort of thing gets amplified, there would have been various moderate republicans, the sort fully behind the likes of Bush^2, Reagan etc.. who voted Trump because they don't want Clinton but weren't fully committed to all the MAGA hype.
I think it's the amplification of all that stuff which has led to stuff like this (maybe some confusion over what a median is too?)
Or the portion of Republicans that did shift right a bit have been hyped up and amplified in the media but when questioned about what they actually believe the median Republican voter hasn't in fact shifted much.
I don't think the core values have changed per se (with either Dems or Republicans) it's the polarisation that has become more apparent in recent years.
Take abortion (because it's in the news right now) and look at some of the legislation being proposed (or actually implemented) by Republican-governed states.
If you look at the rhetoric from both sides, it looks like you either want abortions banned completely under any circumstances or you want abortions to be legal right up until birth. Sure, the majority of people (both left and right) aren't actually going to be that extreme, but some of the politicians certainly appear to be.
Yes, it could partly be due to media amplification but as above, look at the legislation they're passing (or rejecting if it comes from the other side). If the median Republican voter really is just a 6.5, then there's a big disconnect between them and the politicians they're electing to represent them.
If you look at the views of Americans in general abortion, at least in the first trimester has broad support. There will always be religious loons and some are perhaps taking advantage of the current situation but I suspect that if Roe v. Wade is indeed overturned and some states move towards highly restrictive laws then that will be a vote loser for them.
Soldato
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@ianh I think the Tea Party movement set in process a big change for Republican representation. The core voter values may not have moved to much from it's historic spread of general conservative to bat guano nutkins. But the primaries have pushed the elected representatives seriously into the nuttier territory with reasonable candidates who could easily win elections unable to win primaries because the batty wing of the voter base won't select them. A subset of the party drags the wider party away from a more central position through clever use of the primary system.
I routinely give praise that we only ever seem to get a lukewarm reheated version of any American political trends. Because they are just horrible to watch from several thousand miles distant.
I routinely give praise that we only ever seem to get a lukewarm reheated version of any American political trends. Because they are just horrible to watch from several thousand miles distant.
Soldato
Ignore US politics, (although the Dems are just as bad, if not worse, for the love of God, the PotUS condemned his own country on air by pushing the narrative of structural racism), Its not fear mongering if you keep finding examples of it cropping up in everyday life even in the UK
1. BBC labelling the countryside as racist
2. BBC labelling COVID as racist (and despite all the interviewed professionals not agreeing, the presenter still affirmed this must be true)
3. BBC killing Dr Who with the most tickiest of tickbox cast that couldn't act.
4. NHS now asking men if they are pregnant before having a scan
5. NHS removing all gender from midwifery and having to creating ridiculously unnatural new terms for everything.
6. Napier University - Edinburgh, their midwifery course literally teaches how to deal with "You may be caring for a pregnant or birthing person who is transitioning from male to female and may still have external male genitalia", i.e. a biological male who is pregnant!
7. The Bristol 'Sex' Show, minimum age, 5
8. All of Libs of TikTok content.
etc, etc, etc, etc.
Pretty much anyone liberal, just look at Russell Brand, Jordan Peterson.. and anyone else that is liberally minded and used to be considered left of centre, take less obvious people like Lindsay Shepherd, another victim of cancel culture, she even made a youtube video announcing her departure from 'the left'
US politics is bizarre on both sides, but again, they are still fairly centrist comparing to the true far left and wing ring movements.
Soldato
I crossed out one out because its a joke. Look at the difference when Republicans leave the WH to Democrats and tell me they are fiscally responsible.
I've clearly missed the link to this poll, this poll is what the meme is based on?
Russell Brand and Jordan Peterson haven't been branded alt-right. Does anyone take Brand seriously? A comic actor tuned YouTuber who loves a conspiracy theory? Peterson who does speak out, rightly on subjects like some "cancel culture" but is also a religious loon with substance abuse issues. But no one is branding him alt-right. Clearly we have different interpretation of what alt-right is. Lets not forget the right is just as good at cancelling people as the left.
As for your BBC list, I'm sure someone could come up with a similar list from the other side of the political spectrum. When the right and left are equally infuriated with the BBC they clearly aren't doing that badly.
Soldato
Those religious loons are passing laws making abortion murder. 26 states are expected to make abortion illegal, over half of the states, even though the majority of the country support abortion in the first trimester. These are extremists and they are in charge at the state level but Republicans have only moved 0.5 to the right? Something doesn't add up.
JBP has definitely been called alt-right by plenty of people online.
I haven’t come across Brand being called alt-right, but it’s probably linked to the anti-lockdown, anti-vax content he’s been putting out recently.
Brand is quite often called alt-right now. Even been reported in some papers fairly recently.
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