The R word

[silvagti]

Problem is it's a worldwide one ,mainly globalisation and the super rich screwing everyone.

World's crap ,black,white,Asian,Eskimos all are as bad as each other because we are all human and we are all the same in the head where it counts.

No race is better,or less racist or as destructive / caring/compassionate/environmentally friendly as the next.

Don't be daft. It's clearly only white people who are inherently racist and the reason only Britain has an endemic problem with "widespread systemic racism" throughout our entire culture and history. Countries governed by other ethnicities are wonderful utopias where everyone is treated equally and there's no such thing as discrimination.



But agreed, your point about money and globalisation is key here. The reality is all this talk about race/gender/etc inequality is just a smokescreen so the argument is moved away from other issues those in charge don't want to discuss.

 

[hood1971]

That's been debunked multiple times.

They are payed the bare minimum wage and the gang masters expect them to work like absolute dogs and meet a minimum speed.

They flat out won't employ British workers - plenty of people applied when they had that stupid "pick for Britain" campaign, and most Brits that applied never even had a reply.

"Brits are lazy"; "Brits won't work in the fields" - it's all rubbish.

It's a question of paying the bare minimum and getting labourers that work like machines for 12 hours a day and will put up with whatever treatment the gang master dishes out. Hence they import Romanian (etc) workers.

You shouldn't celebrate that - they treat these workers like dogs purely to keep food costs down.

I don't think you get to claim the moral high ground there.

As always it is more complex. There are definitely exploitative work practices in farming, but the bigger concerns have to follow ethical living, working and pay practices else they cannot supply supermarkets.
I worked on for a large soft fruit farming business (£50 million turnover) and piece pay rates were structured so that the worst pickers would earn minimum wage , and best pickers were nearer twice that. Essentially 90% should be able to pick enough to cover minimum wage, and 10% would have their wages topped up.

It is hard work, but the majority of workers would stay and work for 3-4 months. Tired workers pick slower, so piece rates would have to go up, therefore it is not in the interest of the business to have tired workers.

This being said the average wage would only be around £19000 per annum. This is not enough for a person to live on if they need to pay full rent, utlities etc., while the work is tiring and mind numbing. Hardly an attractive prospect for UK workers.
Recruitment was mainly eastern European, Poland, Latvia, Bulgaria with different rules for the new ascension countries (things might have changed in 8 odd years), but we also tried to recruit from the local areas. Generally British workers would last 2 days, some a week, never a month.

The farming sector does rely on replaceable cheap labour, as do many industries, and it is not a sustainable model. Corona has hit these hard, and Brexit will kill off a lot of this. Problem is the country has not invested in people or systems to improve productivity and this reliance is now being exposed.

 

[FoxEye]

As always it is more complex. There are definitely exploitative work practices in farming, but the bigger concerns have to follow ethical living, working and pay practices else they cannot supply supermarkets.
I worked on for a large soft fruit farming business (£50 million turnover) and piece pay rates were structured so that the worst pickers would earn minimum wage , and best pickers were nearer twice that. Essentially 90% should be able to pick enough to cover minimum wage, and 10% would have their wages topped up.

It is hard work, but the majority of workers would stay and work for 3-4 months. Tired workers pick slower, so piece rates would have to go up, therefore it is not in the interest of the business to have tired workers.

This being said the average wage would only be around £19000 per annum. This is not enough for a person to live on if they need to pay full rent, utlities etc., while the work is tiring and mind numbing. Hardly an attractive prospect for UK workers.
Recruitment was mainly eastern European, Poland, Latvia, Bulgaria with different rules for the new ascension countries (things might have changed in 8 odd years), but we also tried to recruit from the local areas. Generally British workers would last 2 days, some a week, never a month.

The farming sector does rely on replaceable cheap labour, as do many industries, and it is not a sustainable model. Corona has hit these hard, and Brexit will kill off a lot of this. Problem is the country has not invested in people or systems to improve productivity and this reliance is now being exposed.

Thanks for that.

I wonder how much of anything will really change as a result of Brexit (etc). Or whether the government will simply invent some scheme to allow the cheap migrant labour to continue flowing in. Whilst perhaps placating the other side by ensuring this labour force lives in detention camps and is deported at the end of their contract.

In other words, I expect things will remain largely the same no matter who is in power. The driver at the end of the day is reliance on cheap food, cheap clothes, etc. Changing that will be nearly impossible.

 

[Greebo]

Thanks for that.

I wonder how much of anything will really change as a result of Brexit (etc). Or whether the government will simply invent some scheme to allow the cheap migrant labour to continue flowing in. Whilst perhaps placating the other side by ensuring this labour force lives in detention camps and is deported at the end of their contract.

In other words, I expect things will remain largely the same no matter who is in power. The driver at the end of the day is reliance on cheap food, cheap clothes, etc. Changing that will be nearly impossible.

Totally agree which is why Brexit will make very little difference to the area the majority of people seem to have voted in favour of it - immigration. Lincolnshire is still going to be full of cheap migrant workers.

 

[Roar87]

Totally agree which is why Brexit will make very little difference to the area the majority of people seem to have voted in favour of it - immigration. Lincolnshire is still going to be full of cheap migrant workers.

Funny how these areas were told by Labour that only around 13,000 people would come when we opened the borders to large parts of Eastern Europe, even though over a million did. Now they're being told that closing the borders wont stop immigration. I reckon they aren't going to believe that.

 

[FoxEye]

Funny how these areas were told by Labour that only around 13,000 people would come when we opened the borders to large parts of Eastern Europe, even though over a million did. Now they're being told that closing the borders wont stop immigration. I reckon they aren't going to believe that.

The government will do whatever is necessary to stop food and clothing prices rising.

Otherwise they will face the discontent of the people.

The people can be fickle, let's say.

 

[Greebo]

Funny how these areas were told by Labour that only around 13,000 people would come when we opened the borders to large parts of Eastern Europe, even though over a million did. Now they're being told that closing the borders wont stop immigration. I reckon they aren't going to believe that.

A million eastern European workers came to Lincolnshire? Citation.

Also on the promise that only 13,000 would come bearing in mind that 50,000 a year were already coming from the EU before Labour opened up the new EU countries to come here and work.

And also if closing the borders will stop immigration like you claim why has immigration from outside of the EU continued to grow and grow every year?

 

[jpaul]

As always it is more complex.

Do France/eu countries also rely on foreign workers ? or, do they just pay locals more, which may explain why their food budgets are a higher percentage of average salary.

 

[Roar87]

A million eastern European workers came to Lincolnshire? Citation.

Sorry man I was looking for where I typed Lincolnshire but on my screen I typed 'these areas' in reference to the working class areas that were told they had nothing to worry about in terms of large numbers of foreign workers

 

[Greebo]

Sorry man I was looking for where I typed Lincolnshire but on my screen I typed 'these areas' in reference to the working class areas that were told they had nothing to worry about in terms of large numbers of foreign workers

No but I had and you were replying to it.

SO citation that labour promised that over 5 years only 13,000 people in total would come from the Eastern European countries so around 2,600 per annum?

 

[Greebo]

Do France/eu countries also rely on foreign workers ? or, do they just pay locals more, which may explain why their food budgets are a higher percentage of average salary.

Certainly Spain does and pays even less than we do in the UK for them. I have read that they only get paid around £2-£3 per hour there.

 

[hood1971]

Do France/eu countries also rely on foreign workers ? or, do they just pay locals more, which may explain why their food budgets are a higher percentage of average salary.

I knew that Spain, Germany did recruit for east europe. Looks like France does too

France is not the only country facing a migrant labor crunch. With the coronavirus battening down national borders, many other European farmers also are hurting.

In Britain, agricultural unions are pressing the government to fly in Eastern European workers on chartered planes. Germany announced Thursday it would relax border restrictions to fill gaps in fields and food processing plants.

https://www.voanews.com/europe/farms-citoyens-france-urges-citizens-fill-labor-gaps

 

[Deleted User 234324]

Could the word get filtered so that every time someone uses the word race, racist or any other variation it gets replaced by "fluffy bunnies"

Not only would that soften the mood but it would also be pretty funny.

 

[Roar87]

No but I had and you were replying to it.

SO citation that labour promised that over 5 years only 13,000 people in total would come from the Eastern European countries so around 2,600 per annum?

I'm sure you can use Google as well as me if you need a citation for the 13,000 figured which Tony Blair claimed

 

[Greebo]

I'm sure you can use Google as well as me if you need a citation for the 13,000 figured which Tony Blair claimed

Well you seem to have used the actual number over Blair's entire term of a million and then compared it to his claim of 13,000?

So I assumed you must have been comparing over the same time frame?

Yes Blair predicted that only 13,000 new migrants PER ANNUM would come from the new eastern European members and the reality was that it became one million over his terms.

Yes its still a massive step up from 13,000 per annum to 150,000 per annum but please dont quote fake Daily Express headlines that "13,000 became one million" when even if you read the article they later go on to say the claim was 13,000 per annum and the grand total who came was a million.

Its disingenious.

Plus once the numbers where higher did the new Govt use any of its powers to control or decrease these numbers? Nope, even though they put it in their manifesto - twice, they have just let the number increase.

Hence why I firmly believe Brexit will make no difference to the people in Lincolnshire and other similar areas.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

The R word and the P word, perfect combination.

 

[hd7950]

If this country was actually racist nobody would be allowed in to complain about it.

 

[Tony Edwards]

Minimum wage has had a huge impact on those just above them.

I mean you have people with degrees doing professional jobs earning £10k-£15k less per year because those at the bottom are getting huge pay rises all the time so nothing left for the people above them.

I posted some figures in a thread a month or two ago and the percentages were staggering. I think someone at the bottom had a circa 30-40% rise in wages over the past 12 years and someone 2 levels above had 8% over the same 12 years. If that continues. Then you will have professionals earning minimum wage. As the bottom is moving so fast and the people just above are getting below inflation wage rises which is a real world wage cut year on year. They get poorer and those below are much better off even though they are doing a job anyone could do vs a proper professional with proper training and qualifications.

Erm the reason the minimum wage increased under the Tories was to allow the government to stop having to subsidise peoples wages with working credits and push the burden towards the employer like it should have been if Labour hadnt allowed it to remain so low due to working tax credits.

The increase in minimum wage has not lowered wages above that. Ironicaly what did that was the abundance of better educated workers due to Labour trying to get more people into further eductation. Its a bit like the argument against immigration.

Don't be daft. It's clearly only white people who are inherently racist and the reason only Britain has an endemic problem with "widespread systemic racism" throughout our entire culture and history. Countries governed by other ethnicities are wonderful utopias where everyone is treated equally and there's no such thing as discrimination.



But agreed, your point about money and globalisation is key here. The reality is all this talk about race/gender/etc inequality is just a smokescreen so the argument is moved away from other issues those in charge don't want to discuss.

I dont think most rational people think only white people can be racist. A lot of racists use that phrase to try to lessen their own sense of racism.

Could the word get filtered so that every time someone uses the word race, racist or any other variation it gets replaced by "fluffy bunnies"

Not only would that soften the mood but it would also be pretty funny.

Its not the word racist that is the problem its the words that get used to make someone say "Thats racist".

What a surprise that a discussion on the word racist would turn into a thread disparaging immigrants.

 

[The Running Man]

If this country was actually racist nobody would be allowed in to complain about it.

And people probably wouldn't want to come here from Sudan or Iraq.

I have shown the stats previously that we are one if if not the least racist country in the EU. That doesn't make us perfect but it certainly gives me confidence that the UK isn't quite as vile as people would have us believe.

 

[i-bert]

Its not the word racist that is the problem its the words that get used to make someone say "Thats Racist"

You mean words like equality?