The Rangers Saga and Fallout Thread

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You are wrong, it was done under the guise of Rangers, therefore it is Rangers that are rightly punished, its called corporate responsibility, the same way if one of my engineers does something stupid on a site and gets themselves killed but i forget to sign a bit of paperwork saying the site was safe I could be done for manslaughter.
 
McMav said:
Nope. Rangers are being punished for the actions of the custodian. Rather than the custodian being punished.
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Two points there: 1) Rangers may have to seek civil recompense from the custodian (as you call them) for any wrongs done by the custodian which were ultra vires (I don't know if there were any) but that's separate to whether the club will face sanctions and 2) the club (as a legal entity) has/had appointed this man to carry out actions under its name, that leaves it liable for what is done provided it was not ultra vires (i.e. outwith the scope that might be expected for the person). Whether Craig Whyte should be punished is a question that doesn't directly impact on whether Rangers should be punished, they are linked in that the actions were linked but one person or group requiring a punishment doesn't necessarily mean that other people or groups don't also require punishment for transgressions.

If it were otherwise and Rangers could avoid all sanctions for the wrongs attributable to it just by having a "fall guy" then every business in the World would be remiss if they do not have one, especially if they're considering pursuing a course of action that is flirting at the edges of respectability.
 
Can Craig Whyte be blamed for anything? Sounds like he is dodger who had a dodgy finance plan.

Surely from the outset people at Rangers must have realised even though you are buying the club for a £1 you will need so much money to run and invest in the club to stop it going down. So someone must be responsible for vetting Craig Whyte's business plan and giving it a green light?

Can you blame Craig Whyte for taking a shot at making a profit led on my David Murray? It all comes back on David Murray - he must be the one to go after? Can charges not be brought against David Murray - tax evasion at least?

Now I must qualify this by saying there is a unproven possibility that Whyte, Green and D&P could be in cahoots to liquidate the club.
 
Nauggie said:
Can Craig Whyte be blamed for anything? Sounds like he is dodger who had a dodgy finance plan.

Surely from the outset people at Rangers must have realised even though you are buying the club for a £1 you will need so much money to run and invest in the club to stop it going down. So someone must be responsible for vetting Craig Whyte's business plan and giving it a green light?

Can you blame Craig Whyte for taking a shot at making a profit led on my David Murray? It all comes back on David Murray - he must be the one to go after? Can charges not be brought against David Murray - tax evasion at least?

Now I must qualify this by saying there is a unproven possibility that Whyte, Green and D&P could be in cahoots to liquidate the club.
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Players and staff had TAX deducted from wages. Whyte didn't pay it to the tax man that was Whytes fault. As for teh BTC that lays firmly at the foot of David Murray. However we are still waiting the outcome the Judges at the FTT. Which as it has taken so long is clearly not as clear cut as the media would have you think.
 
People seem to forget that we fully understand and appreciated and acknowlegde that there must be a punishment not only for Rangers but also to act as a deterrent for any other club considering doing the same.

We accept this. There is no argument.

What we want, however, is the punishment to fit the "crime" and be in proportion to what has happened.

We feel the mitigating circumstances are that the owners have done their level best to hide this for as long as possible for reasons yet to be discovered.

We, the fans, employees and staff have done nothing wrong. Our hands were in our pockets and we paid up front for our strips, season tickets. We gave this money in good faith that it was going towards things like bills, wages, paye etc.

Again, for the hard of thinking and those blinded by hatred.....we accept we must receive some sort of punishment, if nothing more but to prevent other clubs using this as an escape route from debt, but it must fitting and legal.

This is the first time in my 35+ years of supporting Rangers that i have seen our fans so united. There is a very deep feeling of resentment first and foremost to David Murray and Craif Whyte who we hold solely responsable for our predicament. The mist has still to lift with regards to Lloyd`s part in this mess also.

Do i need to recap again on the point about accepting we must be punished to some degree?.
 
Whyte already was disqualified as a director, it would have taken two minutes online to check that and know he should never have been given the club.

Its Whyte's fault, its Murray's fault, its Rangers fault, there is a lot of blame, its not the supporters fault and they are the ones who are asked to put their hand in the pocket to line Green's with his plan to save them.

Its actually unfathomable that no one stepped forward with genuine Rangers leanings to save the club other than the Blue Knights and they fell very short of what was required, im pretty sure those guys would have made a good success of the club too, im still not unconvinced that they will end up with their hands on it, shabby and battered it may be by then.
 
McRod said:
People seem to forget that we fully understand and appreciated and acknowlegde that there must be a punishment not only for Rangers but also to act as a deterrent for any other club considering doing the same.

We accept this. There is no argument.

What we want, however, is the punishment to fit the "crime" and be in proportion to what has happened.

We feel the mitigating circumstances are that the owners have done their level best to hide this for as long as possible for reasons yet to be discovered.

We, the fans, employees and staff have done nothing wrong. Our hands were in our pockets and we paid up front for our strips, season tickets. We gave this money in good faith that it was going towards things like bills, wages, paye etc.

Again, for the hard of thinking and those blinded by hatred.....we accept we must receive some sort of punishment, if nothing more but to prevent other clubs using this as an escape route from debt, but it must fitting and legal.

This is the first time in my 35+ years of supporting Rangers that i have seen our fans so united. There is a very deep feeling of resentment first and foremost to David Murray and Craif Whyte who we hold solely responsable for our predicament. The mist has still to lift with regards to Lloyd`s part in this mess also.

Do i need to recap again on the point about accepting we must be punished to some degree?.
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What do you think is a fitting punishment though? It sure as heck isnt a one year suspension from the Scottish cup and a 100k fine, it isnt to stay in the SPL crippled or otherwise, and it isnt to be demoted to the third division because there is no route from SPL to third.

Whatever punishment is given is going to be considered too harsh by some and not harsh enough by others.
 
Metalface Mark said:
Whyte already was disqualified as a director, it would have taken two minutes online to check that and know he should never have been given the club.

Its Whyte's fault, its Murray's fault, its Rangers fault, there is a lot of blame, its not the supporters fault and they are the ones who are asked to put their hand in the pocket to line Green's with his plan to save them.

Its actually unfathomable that no one stepped forward with genuine Rangers leanings to save the club other than the Blue Knights and they fell very short of what was required, im pretty sure those guys would have made a good success of the club too, im still not unconvinced that they will end up with their hands on it, shabby and battered it may be by then.
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Buying Rangers with the threat of the BTC would have been like playing Russian roulette.

No one with half a business brain would have touched it regardless of their genuine Rangers leanings. As a businessman, would you have done the same at St Mirren?.

Throwing money in to a bottomless black hole was never an options.

Watch and see how attractive Rangers Ltd becomes with no lingering debt even in this European recession.
 
Yeah buying it as a going concern and taking on the debts would have been like that, but thats not what anyone is doing, they are buying the assets and leaving the debts behind.

I think I could probably stomach Rangers if the blue knights got their hands on it, Murray at least seems a reasonable fellow, although i think the other guy, the rugby guy is in it to make a quick buck the same way as Green and co are.

When St Mirren were under threat of takeover from Reg Brealey (one of Green's potential partners who attempted to buy St Mirren and Morton with the intention of stealing the land), a group of guys mortgaged their houses and bought the club, they are shortly about to get their money back some 15 years later with considerable interest and have done amazingly well for us, but we were in hock to nearly 3m at the time, similar sums in relation to the size of the club.

I just cant believe there is no one who is prepared to do that for Rangers, there must be plenty of people with money to spend in that club.
 
Metalface Mark said:
What do you think is a fitting punishment though? It sure as heck isnt a one year suspension from the Scottish cup and a 100k fine, it isnt to stay in the SPL crippled or otherwise, and it isnt to be demoted to the third division because there is no route from SPL to third.

Whatever punishment is given is going to be considered too harsh by some and not harsh enough by others.
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Personally, as a loyal, paid up fan, i feel i have been punished enough.

I have watched my club stare down the barrel and it isn`t nice. I watched as we were deducted 10 points which crippled our championship winning possibilty and i have a season ahead without the prospect of European Football. I have watched on as we were fined and on a daily basis we have suffered the prospect of not having a club any more.

I think we have been punished enough.

There has to be a deterrent however. never again can some charlatan waltz in to a Scottish club, put them in the financial ******* and then try for liquidation. I understand there cannot be a situation where this can be allowed to develop in future and for this, there must be a deterrent.

What the deterrent is, i do not know.

Please fully star out all swearing in future. Thank you.
 
Thats the problem though, not being in europe isnt a punishment, its not an automatic right that you are in europe. The ten point deduction is also an automatic deduction, not a punishment as such.

The transfer ban was a reasonable halfway for what effectively was transfer related crimes in part, so the punishment fitted the crime. Unless Rangers cave and accept that one, the only fair punishment is a suspension.
 
Metalface Mark said:
Thats the problem though, not being in europe isnt a punishment, its not an automatic right that you are in europe. The ten point deduction is also an automatic deduction, not a punishment as such.

The transfer ban was a reasonable halfway for what effectively was transfer related crimes in part, so the punishment fitted the crime. Unless Rangers cave and accept that one, the only fair punishment is a suspension.
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The financial implications of us failing to qualify for the CL last year were catastrophic so your impliction that it is not a punishment is something i can`t accept. Rangers need income and being deprived of that is a very severe penalty.

Deducted 10 points is a punishment.

£100,000.00 fine for "bringing the game in to disrepute" is also a punishment and i see a potential loss of £700,000.00 if we are deprived a place in the Scottish Cup next season along with a suspension from European football.

How much more punishment do we need?
 
Its not a punishment though, Rangers shouldnt have been allowed to play last year but the SFA let it slip by. Its Rangers fault that they are not playing in europe through going into administration, just as they knew the ten point penalty was automatic by choosing to go into administration.

Any potential fines are a nonsense as is the loss of 700k if you are 'deprived' a space in the scottish cup, remind me again how much money other companies have been deprived off by Rangers?

It must be a suspension from the league at the very minimum, anything else is a cop out.
 
McRod said:
suspension from European football.

How much more punishment do we need?
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Suspension from European football is not a punishment, no team has the right to play in Europe and Rangers failed to fulfill the requirements to play in Europe (providing accounts at the end of March).

Actual punishment for the mess the club has created in Scottish football has to be implemented to stop other teams from just doing the same and getting away with it (as precedent always trumps rational rules).

So as Mark says kicking out of the league is a necessity, otherwise whats to stop Morton magicing 100m of investment (by duping a bank) getting to the top of the SPL and not actually pay its own players... (note this is all hypothetical and a bad abbreviation of the Rangers mess)
 
It does prove the point though, McRod says Rangers should be punished but also thinks they have been punished enough, this is also before the EBT stuff comes out, which if proved there will have to be additional punishments and titles/cups MUST be stripped to protect the integrity of the game.
 
Metalface Mark said:
Its not a punishment though, Rangers shouldnt have been allowed to play last year but the SFA let it slip by. Its Rangers fault that they are not playing in europe through going into administration, just as they knew the ten point penalty was automatic by choosing to go into administration.

Any potential fines are a nonsense as is the loss of 700k if you are 'deprived' a space in the scottish cup, remind me again how much money other companies have been deprived off by Rangers?

It must be a suspension from the league at the very minimum, anything else is a cop out.
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I disagree, i think 700k is an extremely large amount of money and on top of no european cash revenue i feel this is quite a considerable penalty/punishment.

As said before, a suspension from the league would cause too many financial issues with other clubs to be a consideration even though it would temporarliy satisfy the Rangers loathers.

The only other severe punishement i can think of apart from expulsion would be to watch St Mirren DvDs on "loop" mode but i fear even St Mirren fans would concede that that would be a step too far.
 
pingwing said:
Suspension from European football is not a punishment, no team has the right to play in Europe and Rangers failed to fulfill the requirements to play in Europe (providing accounts at the end of March).

Actual punishment for the mess the club has created in Scottish football has to be implemented to stop other teams from just doing the same and getting away with it (as precedent always trumps rational rules).

So as Mark says kicking out of the league is a necessity, otherwise whats to stop Morton magicing 100m of investment (by duping a bank) getting to the top of the SPL and not actually pay its own players... (note this is all hypothetical and a bad abbreviation of the Rangers mess)
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Each "crime" is simply an extension and consequence of the previous "crime".

It`s like charging a bank robber with having no insurance on his getaway car.

We realise there must be a deterrent. As a fan i feel we have been punished enough. The real outcome should be somewhere in between.

It has to be legal, and fair and the Rangers fans have to be realistic in accepting it.
 
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