The Tesla Thread

Not really though is it?

He says "its not very clear"

Again, Tesla repeatedly say, you need to be ready to take control at all times. Unless he has just jumped in and not paid attention to literally anything Tesla have said regarding the use of autopilot.
 
Well I consider that scenario one where a driver paying full attention can easily get caught out (driver unsighted by car in front of an obstacle in the road), let alone one sat in "passive mode" waiting for something to happen whilst not completely engaged in driving. In that scenario, I'd expect the advantages of automation/assist to come in to play and avoid the accident. The Tesla does not respond appropriately, it takes the wrong action (crashing because it can't stop, instead of swerving around the obstacle), where a human driver could swerve. It's this sort of thing that takes the confidence out of self-driving/assist technology in the minds of the public.

I've said it many times, self-driving doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be better than a person, and here's an example where the technology is patently not up to scratch.
 
Phate said:
Not really though is it?

He says "its not very clear"

Again, Tesla repeatedly say, you need to be ready to take control at all times. Unless he has just jumped in and not paid attention to literally anything Tesla have said regarding the use of autopilot.
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I disagree with the wording at the end. With semi autonomous, you in the driver seat is legally responsible but the car is in control of its position and speed, as directed by the driver. The car is maintaining the speed and position. You as the driver are observing this and need to be able to correct it. The driver will be slower to resolve situations when they've handed part of the responsibility over to the car and may (illegally) not be paying any attention. Holding on the wheel doesn't help you pay attention as you are not needed to place inputs into it.

Having a semi autonomous Volvo and having seen its 'limitations' (read errors), it doesn't feel me with much confidence of other vehicles utilising this feature. AEB yes, but not auto pilot.
 
Steampunk said:
I've said it many times, self-driving doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be better than a person, and here's an example where the technology is patently not up to scratch.
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It is important not to mix semi autonomous with self driving though. The current semi autonomous do a massive disservice to the technology that Waymo is developing.
 
Trifid said:
It is important not to mix semi autonomous with self driving though. The current semi autonomous do a massive disservice to the technology that Waymo is developing.
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Yes, it's a bit difficult to word a reply when we're in this current "half and half" situation. Systems like the current Tesla Autopilot expects the driver to be in control and ready to take over instantly, whilst implementing assist systems that naturally disengage the driver from controlling the vehicle (both mentally and physically).

I fear that issues like this will tarnish the whole sector in the mind of the public, even through autonomous cars are a different kettle of fish from the likes of assist systems that still keep humans in the loop, but less effectively.
 
Steampunk said:
The Tesla does not respond appropriately, it takes the wrong action (crashing because it can't stop, instead of swerving around the obstacle), where a human driver could swerve. It's this sort of thing that takes the confidence out of self-driving/assist technology in the minds of the public
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I agree this is a situation where a fully alert driver can get cought out but I don’t think saying just swerving out of the way is the correct course of action. On a test track fine but if you did that on a busy UK road you could just as easily cause a much bigger collision likewise you could just as easily go into a clear lane but you wouldn’t have enough time to check fully. Your better off preventing the accident in the first place by leaving a bigger gap to the car in front and not following so closely.

The situation that the BBC describes is also specifically described in Tesla user manual as a situation the system can’t handle. It’s also well publicised by the media.

That being said I doubt many owners have actually read the manual which is a huge part of the problem.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
I agree this is a situation where a fully alert driver can get cought out but I don’t think saying just swerving out of the way is the correct course of action. On a test track fine but if you did that on a busy UK road you could just as easily cause a much bigger collision likewise you could just as easily go into a clear lane but you wouldn’t have enough time to check fully. Your better off preventing the accident in the first place by leaving a bigger gap to the car in front and not following so closely.
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Agreed, I do wonder why the Tesla didn't leave more space. It's this kind of accident that I would expect an autonomous car to come into it's own. A few seconds to react, awareness of everything around it, high speed decision making and actions taken to the maximum ability of the car. It's this sort of thing that I would expect a self-driving/assisted vehicle to be able to deal with far, far better than a person, so I'm disappointed to see Tesla get it worse. If it can't stop, it could have at lease swerved off the road and onto the hard shoulder, or ideally make the swerve as the car in front did, knowing if it was safe to do so from all it's onboard systems.

b0rn2sk8 said:
The situation that the BBC describes is also specifically described in Tesla user manual as a situation the system can’t handle. It’s also well publicised by the media.

That being said I doubt many owners have actually read the manual which is a huge part of the problem.
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The more complex you make the system to operate, the less likely an untrained individual will be able to run it competently. You have to account for the human factor if you are going to put a human in the system as with the current version of Autopilot.
 
Steampunk said:
Agreed, I do wonder why the Tesla didn't leave more space.
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Looks like a shade under a 2 second gap to me and travelling at 38-39mph. Humans drive a lot closer then that manually, and the distance is selectable.


Steampunk said:
If it can't stop, it could have at lease swerved off the road and onto the hard shoulder, or ideally make the swerve as the car in front did, knowing if it was safe to do so from all it's onboard systems.
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It's not a fully autonomous system, but even a fully autonomous system may be programmed to not do that knowing it could cause a worse accident.


Steampunk said:
The more complex you make the system to operate, the less likely an untrained individual will be able to run it competently.
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It is a incredible easy system to operate and lures you into a false sense of security by being so.
 
Trifid said:
Looks like a shade under a 2 second gap to me and travelling at 38-39mph. Humans drive a lot closer then that manually, and the distance is selectable.




It's not a fully autonomous system, but even a fully autonomous system may be programmed to not do that knowing it could cause a worse accident.




It is a incredible easy system to operate and lures you into a false sense of security by being so.
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Yep, the driver manually selects the setting.

The way it works is that you select between 1 and 7

The 7 settings are units of following time in increments of 500 milliseconds (.5 seconds).

Each setting corresponds to a time-based distance that represents how long it takes for Tesla Car, from its current location, to reach the location of the rear bumper of the vehicle ahead.
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The faster you drive, therefore, the greater the spacing behind the vehicle in front of you.
 
braking distance isn't linear with speed though so you'd want bigger time gap at higher speeds, ok, you can set it for highest speed.
edit: and road surface eg wet. counts more
 
Weird story: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44531777

Tesla chief executive Elon Musk has accused an employee of carrying out "extensive and damaging sabotage" at the electric carmaker.

In an email to staff, Mr Musk said an unnamed employee made unspecified coding changes to its manufacturing operating system and sent sensitive data to unnamed third parties.

The company did not comment and the allegations have not been verified.

The matter will be investigated, Mr Musk said.

"The full extent of his actions are not yet clear, but what he has admitted so far is pretty bad," he said in the email.

"His stated motivation is that he wanted a promotion that he did not receive.

"As you know there are a long list of organisations that want Tesla to die," he added, citing Wall Street short-sellers, oil and gas companies and rival car makers as being among them.
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jpaul said:
braking distance isn't linear with speed though so you'd want bigger time gap at higher speeds, ok, you can set it for highest speed.
edit: and road surface eg wet. counts more
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It’s all relative if the car you are following is braking to slow, only really an issue if it’s starts to use objects for speed retardation...
 
Jokester said:
Looks like it’s a deliberate smear campaign against a whistleblower.
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The accusations are pretty vague and also wreaks of a disgruntled employee. It’s been reported that he admitted to it because he didn't get a promotion he thought he was entitled to and Its also been reported he was previously managed out of a position that he performed badly at.

He allegedly tried to hide his activities under other false usernames and allegedly made changes to the manufacturing system to 'sabotage' it. He also allegedly gathered large amounts of confidential data and transferred it to 3rd parties.

He says the data he was collecting was 'so severe' he 'had to do to the media'. His accusations are:

He claims that Tesla has/is producing excessive scrap, something that isn't really surprising given they got Model 3 manufacturing wrong to begin with but who actually cares?

Model 3 battery 'safety concerns' which came to nothing and were largely debunked back in January, he was allegedly the source of the original story back then.

Elon 'lying to the world' which is an interesting accusation with little substance. He alleges that Tesla inflated the Model 3 production numbers 'were nearer 1900' rather than the 2020 Tesla reported in April.

He says he has talked at length to a media outlet at length about his allegations but they have yet to run a story about it. Given Tesla is licence to print clicks at the moment I'm not sure what to read into that, its been 5 days already. Not sure if the accusations also qualify as 'so severe' yet either. Time will tell if he reveals any other data that he has though.

This is probably another one of those things that would likely never make it to the news if it was someone other than Tesla. Either way I hope he can afford good lawyer and I'm going to grab some popcorn as this could get interesting.
 
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He’s refuted all the claims about being passed over for promotion, and the media source he leaked to was Business Insider.

It’s currently a he said/Tesla said (to quote a news article).

It could well be true that he provided information to Business Insider, who have not yet published. They could well be researching the story in more detail to make sure it’s accurate (in case of a lawsuit).

Realistically neither seems to be handling this incident well. The “leaker” could be trying to cover his arse, but Musk is acting like a spurned lover/vindictive associate in return.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...gafactory-martin-tripp?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
 
I agree its very much a he said, they said at the moment. If they are serious about the lawsuit they really shouldn't be talking about it. I guess we will find out when it gets to court if it ever does.


jpaul said:
there were some further S battery issues a couple of weeks back too
I had wondered if he had details on battery cooling system issues ... the european car burned out too (was it de)
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Doubt it, Model S batteries are made in Japan by Panasonic. Cars catch fire all the times for lots of reasons.
 
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