The thread which sometimes talks about RDNA2

[Jimmy Weirdarms]

It's irrelevant to gaming and consumer gaming cards.

Given that it's in new games now, and people seem to like it, I'd say otherwise. Again, whether you personally value it or think the results are worth it doesn't make it irrelevant to the market at large.

Of course it was a business strategy - get the next gen technique out there and starting to be used. They are a business, that's what businesses do, sell things.

What's wrong is your weirdly aggrieved attitude that it was somehow pushed on an unwilling public as some sort of scam - gamers want it, designers want it. You don't - no worries, that's your choice.

 

[Dontrocktheboat]

From the DF video. Is that really hard to do?

Now check this:

No rays, no traces. Nothing special just pure beauty. Pure optimization. Runs 180fps 4k. Cyberpunk only gets 30fps.

haHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This made me chuckle on boxing day. Open world game vs a console racing sim.

Oh what a cracker.

RT is next lvl, like comparing dx9 vs dx12.

Picture without the RT looks dated as f, woman looks like she just farted in the car.

 

[FoxEye]

Given that it's in new games now, and people seem to like it, I'd say otherwise. Again, whether you personally value it or think the results are worth it doesn't make it irrelevant to the market at large.

So you mean to tell us you think most people are on board with RT now/already?

Since you're saying that (my) individual preference doesn't matter, and that the "market has decided"... then you must be quite certain that the majority want RT.

What's your proof of that?

For counter-proof, I offer this thread and others like it, where people are very sceptical about the merits of RT in 2020.

If you'd said, "the manufacturers have decided, as a means to sell new cards" then I would agreed with you.

Wouldn't be the first time consumers have been forced to accept something whether they wanted it or not.

 

[Jimmy Weirdarms]

So you mean to tell us you think most people are on board with RT now/already?

No, I think it's wrong to portray it as being a scam, or something that's not wanted by gamers or game designers, which you seem keen to do. It's an evolution in rendering techniques, and one that's been long anticipated.

For counter-proof, I offer this thread and others like it, where people are very sceptical about the merits of RT in 2020.

People like yourself who like to moan about how expensive everything is? I don't think this forum is representative of anything very much.

 

[FoxEye]

No, I think it's wrong to portray it as being a scam, or something that's not wanted by gamers or game designers, which you seem keen to do. It's an evolution in rendering techniques, and one that's been long anticipated.

People like yourself who like to moan about how expensive everything is? I don't think this forum is representative of anything very much.

Yes I too remember all the gamers begging for lower FPS and reduced details. It was a constant clamouring from gamers the world over.

"Please, let us pay vastly more for the 2000 series. Let us go back to 720p and 30FPS, so we may have (fudged) RT, that we often can't even notice in our games, or tell if it's an improvement or not."

And nVidia said, "You sure about that? If it's really what you want, I guess we can release the 2000 series with massive price increases and pathetic RT that isn't really ready for prime time yet."

And the gamers got on their knees and begged for Jensen to do it. So he listened and he gave them what they cried out for.

 

[humbug]

RT is good as an option, its there and you have a choice to use it or not.

Typical Nvidia marketing is in convincing people doing something that normally you would see as a negative is actually a good thing.

How? By making it a feture, you wouldn't normally turn your resolution down to 720P or 1080P if you have a higher resolution Screen and an £800 GPU to drive it.

So make it a feature, call it DLSS and instruct the drivers to replace some lost detail in some frames that you can instruct tech journalists to investigate and everyone thinks DLSS makes a 1080P image look 4K.

THAT is what Nvidia are really good at, marketing.

 

[Jimmy Weirdarms]

So make it a feature, call it DLSS and instruct the drivers to replace some lost detail in some frames that you can instruct tech journalists to investigate and everyone thinks DLSS makes a 1080P image look 4K.

It kinda does actually, as it's not just upscaling.

But I know, you're really bitter about it as well for unknown reasons. :shrug: not my issue.

 

[EastCoastHandle]

The hate I felt was directed at Nvidia and CP2077. I never once felt it was directed at me

I've said before that screen shots and videos don't do CP2077 justice, much in the same way they do not help VR. It's something best experienced, hence I didn't bother replying. I have tried taking screen shots, but it takes a few minutes to sort out each comparison ready for posting and with RT on you also need to describe what the extra IQ is and why it exists.

I'm in good spirirts here, not triggered at all. I'll even admit I enjoy the back and forth, but recently you just have gone over the top. I've not noticed xcx_xcxvgyt, or maybe I have replied without registering who to.

• I think we should continue to forget about consoles, don't let them hold back hardware/software progression.
• In general hybrid redering will be used for some time, that's true, but as we can see from CP2077 the results are very good. Meanwhile Minecraft and Quake 2 RTX both show what can be done with a path tracing.
  
• There are some Youtube vudeos out there showing CP2077 with RT maxed running on a 3060 at very playable FPS, probably at 1080p. People are using a 3070s at 1440p, I myself run my 3080 at 1440p with an ancient 3770k and DDR3. Yes there is a big hit to FPS with RT, but that is not unusual for new tech and is definately worth it in a game like CP2077. While Turing was awful, RT is very usable now with Ampere, even in an ancient PC.
  
• Sure I'd agree, turn it off if you are playing a copetitive twitch shooter, but anything else it should be turned on as it adds greatly to immersion.

For me it's simple. RT OFF gives us the same old pancake presentation of 3D where assets feel as though they are pasted in as an after thought, while RT ON tricks the brain in to believing the world is phyisical, that the assets are part of the world and belong there.

When I said hate something that did not defined as a person. Which goes back to the same thing. You had nothing more to say. And after reading this response is still the same. I can have a realistic view of Ray tracing without hating it.

Your screenshot claim is just an excuse. It is what it is. RT offers little to anything of IQ value to performance. Whether it be screenshot, in motion, yt or in game. As I told you before the game is still rasterized with elements of rt. Those elements have keep rt implementation restricted and clumsily used.

You may post that you are in good spirits but when your actions show me something different it overrides what you say. Actions speak louder than words. And your actions demonstrate that you are triggered by my view of ray tracing. Just own up to it.

You make it impossible to take your response to me seriously when you lie. Just own up to it.

There is no such thing as ignoring consoles that's a ridiculous claim. And the results of cb2077 using rt are poor. We can also thank dlss set to blur in order to get higher fps.

This generation of mid-range GPU cannot run ray tracing natively at 60 fps at 1080p and higher with all iq set to high. So, again you tell another lie. You see what you are doing? You have to lie in order to make rt look palatable. If rt was actually this modern marvel you make it out to be you wouldn't need to lie for it.

The only time you can use rt natively in cb2070 is for screenshots. But you will quickly enable dlss to actually play the game. Among other iq reductions.


Ray tracing is nvidia new tessellation. Nothing more nothing less. It will be abused and overdone. Because there hardware is tailored for it. Even though it cannot do so at acceptable frame rates natively using resolutions higher the 1080p.

RT demo'd in cb2077 is a complete disaster do to the contravsory surrounding the game.

And it will reach end of life sooner rather than later.

Toodles.

 

[humbug]

It kinda does actually, as it's not just upscaling.

But I know, you're really bitter about it as well for unknown reasons. :shrug: not my issue.

Why does eveything i see remind me of this? The one in the middle is RIS, i still haven't seen DLSS make anything look anything as good as that. the 4K DLSS image on the right looks suspiciously like the right hand side of the second image.

 

[xcx xcxvgyt]

DLSS not a good solution.

You need driver support+game support and not working with every resolution. Not working with every ratio. If you have 21:9 or 32:9 say bye bye to dlss with most title.

Considering there are at least 5 to 10 game coming up by month it will be impossible to get dlss support for most of the title.

1 or 2 AAA game can get support. That's all not more. While getting 90 fps 4k native with Death Stranding who cares have a dlss or not?

Just consider if every game support RT have many of them will get also dlss? The answer is obious. Nvidia don't have enough man power to support every game.

 

[Woodsta888]

Pretty sure those DLSS ones for BF5 are from DLSS 1.0 and Cyberpunk - well, it's about as optimized as a Brexit deal. DLSS 2.0 in control for me, works very well. Like all technologies, it's how well it's coded into a game. CP2077 isnt a game that should be showcasing anything at the minute. Hopefully it'll all get fixed but seeing as SONY have pulled it from sale - says all you need to know when CP2077 doesn run on new consoles.

AMD have will their own version of DLSS where it decides close up stuff is rendered in full detail. Nothing wrong with any of the technologies - It's how well game devs have implemented it into their games.

 

[FoxEye]

RT is good as an option, its there and you have a choice to use it or not.

Typical Nvidia marketing is in convincing people doing something that normally you would see as a negative is actually a good thing.

How? By making it a feture, you wouldn't normally turn your resolution down to 720P or 1080P if you have a higher resolution Screen and an £800 GPU to drive it.

So make it a feature, call it DLSS and instruct the drivers to replace some lost detail in some frames that you can instruct tech journalists to investigate and everyone thinks DLSS makes a 1080P image look 4K.

THAT is what Nvidia are really good at, marketing.

And what about nVidia black-listing Hardware Unboxed, because HU didn't praise their RT enough for nV's liking (lol).

It amazes me that some people can't see this for what it is. nVidia marketing, and nVidia wanting to shape the narrative and the gaming landscape, on their terms.

People will for example, look back on the 2000 series and agree that RT wasn't ready at that point.

 

[humbug]

Pretty sure those DLSS ones for BF5 are from DLSS 1.0 and Cyberpunk - well, it's about as optimized as a Brexit deal. DLSS 2.0 in control for me, works very well. Like all technologies, it's how well it's coded into a game. CP2077 isnt a game that should be showcasing anything at the minute. Hopefully it'll all get fixed but seeing as SONY have pulled it from sale - says all you need to know when CP2077 doesn run on new consoles.

AMD have will their own version of DLSS where it decides close up stuff is rendered in full detail. Nothing wrong with any of the technologies - It's how well game devs have implemented it into their games.

And RIS is game agnostic, turn it on and forget about it, works in every game, even gives very old games a refreshed crisp look.

 

[humbug]

And what about nVidia black-listing Hardware Unboxed, because HU didn't praise their RT enough for nV's liking (lol).

It amazes me that some people can't see this for what it is. nVidia marketing, and nVidia wanting to shape the narrative and the gaming landscape, on their terms.

People will for example, look back on the 2000 series and agree that RT wasn't ready at that point.

Nvidia got to Hardware Unboxed before that, they used Dirt 5 for the 6800XT review as a balance to RT performance, they took it out for the 6900XT, why? JayZ2Cents 6800XT review was glowing, nothing but good things to say about it, he even said it felt smoother and that was down to Frame Pacing, something AMD have been working of for years.

His 6900XT review was exactly the opposite, it was scathing, again why?

 

[Deleted member 66701]

His 6900XT review was exactly the opposite, it was scathing, again why?

Because it's 40% more expensive for 10% more perf?

He was pretty scathing about the 3090 for the same reason.

 

[Woodsta888]

And RIS is game agnostic, turn it on and forget about it, works in every game, even gives very old games a refreshed crisp look.

RIS (Radeon image sharpening)?

No, I'm thinking about AMD's DLSS equivalent - Fidelity FX Super Resolution which is cross platform and open source working with DX12 Ultimate and Microsoft's DirectML.

 

[humbug]

Because it's 40% more expensive for 10% more perf?

That would be a reasonable critisisum, like the 3090, Nvidia have been doing it for years.

That's wasn't it tho, he returned to usual AMD blanket statment tropes, it was not smooth, it ran too hot, bad drivers, bad performance used too much power while using no more power than the 6800XT, which is less than the 3090, but that was great.....

 

[humbug]

RIS (Radeon image sharpening)?

No, I'm thinking about AMD's DLSS equivalent - Fidelity FX Super Resolution which is cross platform and open source working with DX12 Ultimate and Microsoft's DirectML.

I think they will come up with something that involves RIS, FedelityFX and DirectML, existing technologies that they already have and work well but will be built on, improved.... yet again AMD will take a proprietary idea and make it agnostic. And i think in the end it will work better than DLSS.

 

[Woodsta888]

Not relevant when talking about a gaming card for gamers.

Nobody in the gaming space was talking about (fudged, FPS-crippling) real-time RT before nV decided we needed it.

RAy-tracing is really just an algorithm and was first written of in the 16th century, animations in the 70's used it and Disney's Pixar from 2013. Now this accurate space reflection can now be handled, in real time (Disney's Pixar wasn't) on gfx cards you can buy for your home PC. It's just an algorithm used to reflect light in space accurately. NV didn't invent Ray tracing, they've just managed to create a GPU that can render in real time accurate light reflection. Today's CGI where it's getting harder to tell if it's CGI or not, is down to ray tracing. PC games will get to the point where they are realistic but to do realistic you'll need ray tacing or whatever technology uses the RAy tracing algorithm.

 

[FoxEye]

RAy-tracing is really just an algorithm and was first written of in the 16th century, animations in the 70's used it and Disney's Pixar from 2013. Now this accurate space reflection can now be handled, in real time (Disney's Pixar wasn't) on gfx cards you can buy for your home PC. It's just an algorithm used to reflect light in space accurately. NV didn't invent Ray tracing, they've just managed to create a GPU that can render in real time accurate light reflection. Today's CGI where it's getting harder to tell if it's CGI or not, is down to ray tracing. PC games will get to the point where they are realistic but to do realistic you'll need ray tacing or whatever technology uses the RAy tracing algorithm.

Yes but the 2000 series, and now the 3000 series, are showing us that real-time ray tracing is not ready for prime time.

It's riddled with compromises, and this is due to the fact that it remains computationally very, very expensive.

Those Pixar animations you talk of - they weren't done in real time. What's more, they used rendering farms to produce them in an acceptable time-frame. Pretty much supercomputers

What we have in the guise of the 2000 and 3000 series cards is a fudge. Full-scene real-time RT is still years/decades away.

So we have DLSS and upscaling and low-res sampling and a limited number of rays. And it *still* cripples FPS, even this "RT-lite" implementation.