The UK isn't what it's made out to be

Soldato
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I don't have time for a discussion on Belgian Politics (seriously, it'd need a forum all of its own). It's very much 2 countries joined into 1. The Flemish nationalists are nutters who refuse to share any of "their" wealth with the Walloons, and you've got the French-language nationalists who refuse to learn Dutch but insist on socialism which they cannot afford and blame the Flemish for their own failings and the move of industry from coal, etc. to high-tech and services (similar to the UK tbh).
I'm not extolling the virtues of Belgium or its 6 governments (seriously - 1 federal, 5 regional). I was born here to British parents and have lived here most of my life so it's "home". As I said, I would much rather move up to Scandinavia and am in no way suggesting that Belgium is the be all and end all.

The reason you won't get smaller nationalist parties (although TBFH the Conservatives are pretty right-wing) in the UK is due to the first-past-the-post system and the fact that so many of the MPs are in very safe seats.
Also, Belgium is just as racist as the UK, so I'm not justifying any of that either. My points about the UK still stand, however. Just because I live somewhere which also has problems means that my opinions are invalid? Don't think so!
Also, Belgium isn't particularly "more white" than the UK. If you look at the stats, it's roughly the same, but don't forget Begium's population is only 11.5m v 67m in the UK.
UK: Black/African/Caribbean British: 3% Indian/British: 2.3% Pakistani/British: 1.9%, Mixed race: 2%
Belgium: Moroccan 3.7% Turkish 2%

Good reply.

One thing I've noticed, after watching quite a few Scandinavian films and tv series recently, and reconnecting with friends in that part of the world is that their national identity and culture are stronger. I think its partly to do with their native language not being English. The downside of English being spoken in most parts of the world either as a first or second language is its become too open and its lost its original historical connection. If speaking another language, like Gaelic, its a lot easier to maintain culture and a sense of joint identity in my opinion.

I think there is a general negativity in the UK. Not many people are positive and whenever someone tries to make changes they either start a campaign filled with the negativity of slagging off the other side while not making their own case, or they will be shouted down by other people who are just trying to pick any little fault in the opinion while not contributing any solutions.
 
Caporegime
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I think there is a general negativity in the UK. Not many people are positive and whenever someone tries to make changes they either start a campaign filled with the negativity of slagging off the other side while not making their own case
The current Labour lot have made an entire career out of this. What would they do, instead, if given time in government? Nobody knows.
 
Caporegime
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I have been all over the world, America, Australia, Japan, most of Europe but I always come back to England. The culture, the amount of things we can do here is top draw compared to a lot of the world. Yes there are bad parts and good parts but you take it for what it is. I love that we have seasons so in the summer I live a very outdoor life whereas in the winter I focus on the indoor activities.

I would argue that maybe it isn't quite as good as it was and over population is a key factor in that but hopefully we are going in the right direction going forward.
 
Caporegime
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I had a very lengthy and clever response for this thread (it was not clever but it was lengthy) but I think the footnotes part is that people want and identify with different things. If the <insert country tag> works for you then carry on. If it doesn't - and this is the perennial GD kicker because no one likes doing anything because whining is easier - then either sort it out or don't. Either way, your situation is your situation.
 
Associate
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Lolz. The UK is nothing special. Ruined by successive Tory governments and the ferocious xenophobia and Brexit ******** of the last 4-5 years. Honestly, I loved my time in London as a student in the ‘00s and the few years in Manchester in the early ‘90s when I was small, but I haven’t been back to the UK for probably ten years now and don’t really see a reason to.

Horsed for courses, etc.

I think those in glass houses should not throw stones so carelessly, you are from/in Belgium. I find it quite hilarious that you find it so easy to attack the UK yet Belgium is a country of which even the very definition of dysfunctional fails to accurately describe the level of chaos and inter-organisational failures that is present and on-going within BE. Despite being the 'Heart of the EU' Belgium is a country within the history books which proudly holds the acclaim of the longest period of time in the world a country has been without an elected Government (589 days). This is even surpassing that of Iraq at 289 days in 2010.
 
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Soldato
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Tbf with the student loan system over there being as abhorrent as it is, the way this chap has done it is the only way to do it, unless you have old money.

What do you mean by abhorrent? Like with most investments, you need to understand what you are getting yourself into and make wise choices.

University education in the USA is very variable in cost and there's many more scholarships and financial aid available when compared to the UK (at least when I went to university about 15 years ago). Many state universities in the USA charge a fraction of what some private universities in the USA cost, and still provide a decent education. You don't have to spend many hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a good education in the USA.

Within my social circles, graduating from university with debt equal to (or even less than) UK graduates isn't that unheard of, even when parents can't contribute much money, if any at all.
 
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Soldato
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I think there is a general negativity in the UK. Not many people are positive and whenever someone tries to make changes they either start a campaign filled with the negativity of slagging off the other side while not making their own case, or they will be shouted down by other people who are just trying to pick any little fault in the opinion while not contributing any solutions.

This post should be cut and pasted to every forum thread, on every website.
 
Soldato
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I had a very lengthy and clever response for this thread (it was not clever but it was lengthy) but I think the footnotes part is that people want and identify with different things. If the <insert country tag> works for you then carry on. If it doesn't - and this is the perennial GD kicker because no one likes doing anything because whining is easier - then either sort it out or don't. Either way, your situation is your situation.

I agree with the above.
 
Caporegime
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I agree with the above.
I think it's a bit simplistic to think that everybody's predicament is entirely of their own making.

Perhaps the people who think this way have had more privileged upbringings than others, or simply not experienced the same problems.

I don't even like the phrase "privileged" but it's hard to encapsulate this idea any other way. For example, if you've never experienced depression, it might be tempting to think people can just "pull themselves together and get over it". Etc, etc, for many other types of problems that some may have been fortunate enough never to have experienced.

Even for some that have genuinely been at the bottom, they may have had a lucky break and then start to think that everybody can do the same.

I just don't think you can blame individuals entirely and 100% for every problem they experience. And saying things like, "Only you can fix your own problems" does have that implication.

e: What I'm saying is that there are limits to personal responsibility, and some things that can only realistically be fixed by changes to society.

To give a poor example (admittedly), go to a country without an NHS. Find a person who needs an urgent operation costing more than his annual salary. Tell him his situation is hit situation, and only he can do something about it.
 
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Soldato
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e: What I'm saying is that there are limits to personal responsibility, and some things that can only realistically be fixed by changes to society.

To give a poor example (admittedly), go to a country without an NHS. Find a person who needs an urgent operation costing more than his annual salary. Tell him his situation is hit situation, and only he can do something about it.

I dont think its a poor example really. You're right, many people dont have the means* to change their situation.

*The means. What is this? It could be a whole range of things, financial or mental. Your example above is about your luck in where you were born and your financial situation. But what about a shy kid who never built up a lot of confidence at school for example, even if he was fortunate to be from a good country. Is it his fault that he cant find the bravery to move for a better life?

Even trying to fix society won't change everything. You cant have every single person moving countries to get a better life. Our system relies on most people staying put, doing what they are told, paying their taxes and spending their money.

We are nothing but ants.
 
Soldato
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I think it's a bit simplistic to think that everybody's predicament is entirely of their own making.

Perhaps the people who think this way have had more privileged upbringings than others, or simply not experienced the same problems.

I don't even like the phrase "privileged" but it's hard to encapsulate this idea any other way. For example, if you've never experienced depression, it might be tempting to think people can just "pull themselves together and get over it". Etc, etc, for many other types of problems that some may have been fortunate enough never to have experienced.

Even for some that have genuinely been at the bottom, they may have had a lucky break and then start to think that everybody can do the same.

I just don't think you can blame individuals entirely and 100% for every problem they experience. And saying things like, "Only you can fix your own problems" does have that implication.

e: What I'm saying is that there are limits to personal responsibility, and some things that can only realistically be fixed by changes to society.

To give a poor example (admittedly), go to a country without an NHS. Find a person who needs an urgent operation costing more than his annual salary. Tell him his situation is hit situation, and only he can do something about it.

Also all very valid points.

To put the rest of this post in context, the first 20 or so years of my life I was a whiner. I tore peoples belief in me to shreds through my early 20s due to my attitude primarily in always finding something/someone to blame for everything that had gone wrong in my life.

The problem is what does whining about things do to solve any of those problems? No one truly listens. Mags is right in that you have to do something, anything, to try and sort your situation out. Even if it doesn't work out. Just. Keep. Trying. Stay in the game for as long as possible, life is unpredictable in so many ways. In no way are they blaming individuals for the problems they face (presumption here, but based on past postings), but more saying "control what you can, ignore what you can't" and that if you aren't happy, strive however hard you want/capable of before you accept the way things are or get to a point where you could reach some level of contentment. On the subject of the thread, that may very well be a re-location if you don't like your current location. Standing still and stamping feet about how it's "not my fault" is very valid, but ultimately not productive in any way.

Your NHS example is a great example of the privilege people in this country have though. It's something that we completely take for granted and abuse (smoking, drinking, over eating...). In the given scenario, luck plays it's part and when there are billions of people on a rock that is still developing then bad luck as well as good luck will occur. Life can and always will be bloody horrible, but the worst of life in the UK today is multiple times better than the worst of life elsewhere in many places across the world and history. I remember being told at school and growing up that "life isn't fair". It's true and I don't think it will ever change. (I rambled on about this and nihilism for about 2 paragraphs, deleted to spare you all. edit: it's seems as though dan understands with his ants comment above :p)

Not everyone will survive. Not everyone will enjoy life. That's just the unfairness of it all. Focusing on the suffering of others is very noble, but in that "person who needs an urgent operation costing more than his annual salary" situation, what would YOU do about it? I don't know what I would do until it became a reality, but there would be three clear options 1) try everything you could think of to get the money or treatment; loan, sell, lie, cheat, steal, anything to maintain health/survive if that was the desire. 2) whinge, moan and question at how life could be so cruel before you succumb to whatever fate has in store 3) accept that it is what it is, and enjoy what you have and take whatever happens as your experience of 'life'. All 3 are understandable reactions, and luck could strike in any one, but most likely if 1) was chosen.

To bring it back to Mags post once again, my interpretation was: if you want the things this country (or the one you reside in) offers and it meets your ideals then carry on. If it doesn't, then find one that does and do whatever you can to make it happen, or don't. Whining about this is easier than doing something about it. It cannot be expected that anyone else can do that thought process and action for you, it belongs to you no matter how unfair life can be.

Worth noting, as I announced earlier in the thread, I'm biased towards living in the UK as I truly believe it's the best place for ME to live in the entire world based on my experience, needs and ideals so far. I can't/don't want to live in lots of different places to find out if they are better, but I am content and as a result unable to truly put myself in the mindset of someone that doesn't want to live here. Until that changes, I'll choose to do nothing but when/if it does I'll have to act to make it possible.

Having said everything I have above though doesn't discount that people can help you out, society has the capacity to be nicer and understanding, and personal responsibility isn't the holy grail that it's sometimes made out to be. However, personal responsibility is the starting point, it's the point where a decision is made to take control of what you can. For many that's enough to make it through life, and what I class as the beginning of adulthood.

We are all different (physically, mentally, morally, politically, religiously, etc etc), and that's what this all boils down to. That's what drives anyone's response to "The UK isn't what it's made out to be".
 

mjt

mjt

Soldato
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I think those in glass houses should not throw stones so carelessly, you are from/in Belgium. I find it quite hilarious that you find it so easy to attack the UK yet Belgium is a country of which even the very definition of dysfunctional fails to accurately describe the level of chaos and inter-organisational failures that is present and on-going within BE. Despite being the 'Heart of the EU' Belgium is a country within the history books which proudly holds the acclaim of the longest period of time in the world a country has been without an elected Government (589 days). This is even surpassing that of Iraq at 289 days in 2010.
Why did you delete everything? You had valid points.

As I mentioned in post #160 Belgium has plenty wrong with it.
Just because Belgium is **** in certain aspects, why does that not permit me to say what is wrong with the UK? Overall, IMO, Belgium is less **** than the UK.
 
Soldato
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The problem is what does whining about things do to solve any of those problems? No one truly listens. Mags is right in that you have to do something, anything, to try and sort your situation out. Even if it doesn't work out. Just. Keep. Trying. Stay in the game for as long as possible, life is unpredictable in so many ways. In no way are they blaming individuals for the problems they face (presumption here, but based on past postings), but more saying "control what you can, ignore what you can't" and that if you aren't happy, strive however hard you want/capable of before you accept the way things are or get to a point where you could reach some level of contentment. On the subject of the thread, that may very well be a re-location if you don't like your current location. Standing still and stamping feet about how it's "not my fault" is very valid, but ultimately not productive in any way.

I think everyone with a bit of intelligence and self awareness will totally understand this. However, understanding the theory does not make it easy to implement the solution. You might say that it shouldn't be easy, that no-one ever said it would be easy. And I think that's right, again, most people implicitly know this.


Worth noting, as I announced earlier in the thread, I'm biased towards living in the UK as I truly believe it's the best place for ME to live in the entire world based on my experience, needs and ideals so far. I can't/don't want to live in lots of different places to find out if they are better, but I am content and as a result unable to truly put myself in the mindset of someone that doesn't want to live here. Until that changes, I'll choose to do nothing but when/if it does I'll have to act to make it possible.

A big part of me believes I would be happier somewhere else doing things I enjoy in more suitable settings. But most people can't just up and leave. The risk involved is huge. Some people are not natural risk takers. Need to get a new job, would need to make all new friends. Some people will just say yeah go do it, others will reel at the thought of it. So how do you do it if your whole body and mind is telling you not to and holding you back? It becomes an insurmountable problem.


How many of us could be happier, could do better and achieve more, in a nicer setting or here in the UK, but don't because something holds us back? I'd say this applies to almost everyone. Imagine the possibility if you're not held back by fear of moving, even just to another part of the UK let alone abroad. Your mind knows this but still something holds you back.
 
Soldato
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Its a lot scarier to live a vanilla life and not do what you wish to do, then die.....
Edit, you could say why is moon man in the mental heath thread if his life is so sorted
Answer, i am still lookimg for meanimg of life the universe and everything but not afraid to look, west yorkshire left my soul scarred a little. But its slowly healing
 
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Soldato
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How many of us could be happier, could do better and achieve more, in a nicer setting or here in the UK, but don't because something holds us back?

The thing that holds a lot of people back (not all people because for some, circumstances does not allow it) is excuses. People generally make up excuses (valid or not, but often not) to not do something because it is easier to do nothing. People will moan about something about their lives, you give genuine options to improve the situation but they will put up barriers in front of each option till they have convinced themselves the problem is insurmountable.
 
Soldato
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The thing that holds a lot of people back (not all people because for some, circumstances does not allow it) is excuses. People generally make up excuses (valid or not, but often not) to not do something because it is easier to do nothing. People will moan about something about their lives, you give genuine options to improve the situation but they will put up barriers in front of each option till they have convinced themselves the problem is insurmountable.

That's the crux of my question though isn't it. Is genuine fear an excuse, or just part of your personality in some way. If the latter then you can't really blame people. An excuse is lazy, a genuine fear response is not, its something else.
 
Soldato
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this, and your mate will probably sleep with your wife while you are cooking the ribs on the bbq, will probably drink your tinnies of fosters out of the fridge too while he is at it........................

It was going so well until you mentioned Fosters which isn't even very popular over there. I'm not sure how they even make it so bad in the UK, I have heard reports they put the kegs straight under urinals, but that could have been Carling, or both.
 
Soldato
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It was going so well until you mentioned Fosters which isn't even very popular over there. I'm not sure how they even make it so bad in the UK, I have heard reports they put the kegs straight under urinals, but that could have been Carling, or both.

I was going to say castlemaine XXXX, but I think that might be even worse :eek:
 
Soldato
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Everywhere has its advantages and disadvantages. Personally I wouldn’t want to move back to the UK, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s a dump. I’ve lived in the UK, South of France and Mexico - I enjoyed each of them in different ways. You just have to find the place that’s right for you, which may change as you go through different stages of life.
 
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