Because just as you cannot prove God's existence, neither can you disprove it. To put "God does not exist" would technically be as unfounded as saying that he does.
There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life
- Thread starter Grrrrr
- Start date
Because just as you cannot prove God's existence, neither can you disprove it. To put "God does not exist" would technically be as unfounded as saying that he does.
By stating I'm wrong you're not proving anything - if you want to debate this issue then back it up with facts.
Every source I can find gives the percentage of > 75% for Muslims in Palestine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories#Religions
West Bank:
"Muslim 75% (predominantly Sunni), Jewish 17%, Christian and other 8% (If East Jerusalem is included, then Jews account for some 20-25% of the West Bank's population)"
Gaza:
Muslim 98.7% (predominantly Sunni), Christian 0.7%, Jewish 0%
You've instantly adopted a very aggressive stance, and also stated that I'm ignorant when all I'm doing is presenting facts and reasoned opinion.
Caporegime
You may feel it, but apparently you can't show it in any way.
Pilky01 said:
It's caused some deaths, sure, but as the other poster said - it's mainly due to ethnic conflicts and other things. You also cite terrorism, by which I can only assume you mean the current wave of Islamic terrorism, which has very little to do with religion, and far more to do with the foreign policy of various Western nations - mainly the USA - in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.
Pilky01 said:
They're not designed to be compatible. Religion doesn't claim to have any explanations for the things that people use it to argue over. The whole creation/evolution thing is a silly argument to have, as the creation account in the Bible is allegorical, and is not intended to be scientifically accurate.
Pilky01 said:
Your opinion is your opinion.
Pilky01 said:
Well, that's true to a degree. Christians - and other religions - are encouraged to raise their children in their beliefs. However, there is also intended to be a choice in the matter when appropriate. The whole Christening/infant baptism business is completely unBiblical anyway, and the sooner it dies a death the better. People should be able to choose once they come of age.
Besides, all people indoctrinate their children to a greater or lesser degree, whether it be into religion, science, or which football team to support. Everyone does it.
1. I don't agree that all religion is evil.
2. I'm sorry but it is an absolute fact that nearly every war throughout history has been caused by religion. The noteworthy exceptions of the past century would be the Korean and Vietnam war, which were more a clash of ideals. Pretty much every other war before and after have extreme religious undertones.
Going further back, the last time a war was thought for anything other than religion was probably when Ghengis Khan was dominating the world. Even then, many of his wars fought in the Middle East could be said to have been caused by the spread of Islam.
3. Some atheists are passive non-aggressive. Some religious folk are too. Some are more vocal as, as are the religious extremists too. The difference is I've yet to see a war or 'terrorist atrocity' committed in the name of atheism.
3. It really depends on the religion as to how compatible they are. The creationist and intelligent design theories (HAH! intelligent!)are definitely not compatible with science, thus the incoherent religious babble spouted by those who espouse them are equally incompatible.
4. When there is no evidence to support <insert holy book here>, why should we believe what they say? Jesus was apparently alive at the same time as some of the greatest historians in history, yet not one of them, even those in Bethlehem and Jerusalem, mention him or any major event that would be comparable to what the Bible says. This is an absolute fact.
5. When a child is told, day in day out, that God is watching them by their parents, I think their is a strong case to say it is brainwashing. Children learn right from wrong from their parents. Unfortunately, religion is part of this.
There are some folk who become religious later in life, seemingly off their own back. Hmmmm - if it's not the parents instilling a God, it's from somewhere else; you can't leave the house without seeing churches, mosques and synagogues, watch a film without the hero praying to god or finding god. Heck even the heads of the most powerful country in the world have no qualm bringing god into politics (Bush, Palin, even Obama... I'm looking at you).
Like it or not, religion is forced down the throat every single day of a persons life. If you think this isn't going to affect certain people, you're very very wrong.
-------------------
My friend is an evangelical christian. I went to her baptism last week; their was singing, dancing, and people in tongues. After the ceremony I had a group of people who I sat and had a cup of tea with who had been warned I was an atheist. They were lovely folk who wanted to talk about my (lack of) beliefs. It was also the most amount of times I'd been told I'm "definitely going to hell" unless I am "saved" (from what I have no idea?!?!). I was also told repeatedly that I was wrong. I didn't mind because it's what they believe.
I have never told anyone outright that they are wrong on the matter of whether their is a supernatural god watching over us. Not once! It's obvious I am adamant that there is no god, but I would never ever outright say someone is wrong. For me, that is where the difference lies between atheists and theists.
I'll leave it there with the rather famous and epic Epicurus quote:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
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Man of Honour
"Probably" mitigates the statement and changes it from a definitive, as Conscript says you cannot either prove or disprove it so the statement is not wrong as it might be if it had stated "there is no God...". Although you would be correct if you think that is a more traditional atheistic position to deny the existence of god - the whys and wherefores of what exactly atheism means now have been done to death in this thread so I'll forebear from going any further.
I'd disagree, it isn't the difference between atheists and theists as much as it is the difference between people who respect other peoples beliefs and those who don't. See in this thread alone for examples of atheists who will happily proclaim that theists are wrong if you've never noted it before.
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Associate
The point of science is that it is self-destructive. Scientists try to find evidence to disprove theories. Religion is doctrine. Science is an attempt to increase knowledge: organised religion, at its heart, is not. I don't think it is honest to bracket one with the other like that.
2. I'm sorry but it is an absolute fact that nearly every war throughout history has been caused by religion. The noteworthy exceptions of the past century would be the Korean and Vietnam war, which were more a clash of ideals. Pretty much every other war before and after have extreme religious undertones.
3. Some atheists are passive non-aggressive. Some religious folk are too. Some are more vocal as, as are the religious extremists too. The difference is I've yet to see a war or 'terrorist atrocity' committed in the name of atheism.
5. When a child is told, day in day out, that God is watching them by their parents, I think their is a strong case to say it is brainwashing. Children learn right from wrong from their parents. Unfortunately, religion is part of this.
Like it or not, religion is forced down the throat every single day of a persons life. If you think this isn't going to affect certain people, you're very very wrong.
WOW. Very good post. Was very good reading. Seemed to some this up very well. I'm lucky that when I was brought up, it was a case of me decideing for myself what I wanted to believe in (or not believe).
I was going to qote the whole post as I thought it was all very true but just picked out the bits that made me nod in complete agreement.
Don't confuse wars where the sides are divided by religion with wars caused by religion. The vast majority of wars have been about land and power, religion has just been the selection factor. If it wasn't religion, it would have been something else. Take a look at Northern Ireland for example, it's divided by religion, but the conflict has not been caused by religion, the religion issue is only the dividing identifier because of the way the Northern Irish population grew due to immigration.
Stalin's religious cleansing would count quite happily...
Only if you put faith in science to be more than the method was designed to be, and assume all the assumptions that underpin the scientific method to be factually accurate, rather than useful.
Well, do consider that you share their beliefs. I don't share beliefs with atheists or christians (or other organised religions), so the same ideas coming from either side seem just the same to me.
If you're leaning more towards one side or the other, you'll tend not to notice or not to witness the same sort of behaviour.
I've had some very aggressive (and poorly educated) atheists get very angry with me when I've gone through how their stated belief structure is an unprovable religious faith in the assumptions of the scientific method when they've shoved it in my face as evidence for a naturalist universe, for example, even on this forum in some of the extensive religion threads in speakers corner, you can see this.
Soldato
God is made up, and people have thought of many different stupid phrases like "No-one can understand God" to cover every angle.
Of course it is all made up people need to open their eyes
Surely talking to someone who isnt there, let alone real, is a form of severe dementure?
Associate
Stalin did not kill people because they were religious. He killed because he saw a threat to his power. He killed almost indiscriminately, on that basis.
Surely your statement is as great a statement of faith as that made by any religious person. It is certainly not founded on anything factual.
Man of Honour
Since you are making the definitive statement there that God does not exist (which one? there have been hundreds, if not thousands of religions) I suppose you will be able to offer definitive proof to back that up?
If most of the wars in the world were caused by religion, then Stalin's religion is perfectly valid to bring into his reign of terror, because the real motiviations are identical in virtually all the other cases.
If you're not prepared to accept that Stalin and his policy of wiping out people with different beliefs to his own was not religiously motivated (for the record, I don't think it was), then the same logic has to be applied to others using religion as a selector for their power and land grabs, or else you're being hypocritical.
Soldato
I have edited it slightly as you were posting but it means the same.
I dont beleive the big bang etc etc and the like, it just sounds the most likely reason right now.
There is evidence of the big bang, I dont have any to hand but I am sure a physicist/astromonor would say otherwise
I dont really follow anything, one day we will find out what caused us, but the bottom line is we are monkeys who got clever.100s of years ago religion made perfect sense, as no-one had been above the clouds, or knew what was in the middle of the earth, or had any idea where we came from.
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1. What do you mean by 'selection factor'? I stand by my point.
2. Stalin's genocide was not caused by his atheism. Just because he was an atheist does not mean you can hold it up as a shining example of atheist extremism when it quite clearly was not.
3. What are these assumptions of scientific method? Nothing in science can be proven 100%. In a few hundred years, todays theories will probably seem laughable and outdated; however, we still see the benefits of them every single day and will continue. There will also be a well documented paper-trail showing how and why scientists believe the things they do.
I have edited it slightly as you were posting but it means the same.
I dont beleive the big bang etc etc and the like, it just sounds the most likely reason right now.
There is evidence of the big bang, I dont have any to hand but I am sure a physicist/astromonor would say otherwise
You do realise all those scientific theories are, at best and if perfect, only the simplest explaination for the observed data. Science does not and cannot state how something did occur, only the simplest way something could have occured, which is not the same thing in the slightest.
Putting faith in the scientific method to provide truth is no different than putting faith in any other belief. There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing so, we all have to believe something, but it is important to recognise the limitations of your beliefs.
Associate
Of course war is complicated, and religion is almost never the only important factor. But it is still a big motivating and especially justifying factor, in a way that a lack of belief in God is not. The Thirty Years war, the Crusades, the whole idea of a Jihad come to mind.
Stalin used atheism as an excuse, yes, but it does not inherently provide one. Holy books often do, as a means of creating an enemy against which the 'chosen people' can rally.
As much as I admire your arguing style, I do find that it demeans the worth of scientific theory. Evolution goes sooooo far beyond speciation in terms of what we use it to understand, that I can't even contemplate it being even marginally incorrect in any way or form. To even suggest otherwise, in terms of sexual selection, would be ludicrous.
Its a bit like saying 'we can not ever say for fact how a car runs'.
Why would you be prepared to accept that it was religiously motivated when it quite clearly was not? You quite clearly brought it up as an example of an atrocity committed in the name of atheism; simply put, it was not and is in no way relevant to my original post.
Stalin's atrocities were partly due to his dogmatic Marxist and Communist beliefs, with a healthy dose of paranoia and insanity. Atheism doesn't get a look in.
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