Thoughts on employers potentially having to offer 4-day week?

[D.P.]

It's depressing how many are institutionalised into a 9-5 with all the disadvantages that brings. Can't be talked out of it. Like lemmings.
9-5 traffic worse than ever.

On top of that we have all these companies telling everyone they need to return back to the office now, taking away WFH.

While I am very much in favour of flexible working arranges and hours, and especially WFH and I take full advantage of the flexibility my employer offers me and enorage my team to also leverage this flexibility, the realty is very few jobs work OK in complete isolation. Software development for example - while often coding is best done with a few hours completely uninterrupted in a quiet environment which is often best done form home , it also needs collaboration with other engineers, discussing. architectures, API contracts, co-programming, code reviews. And most places emply Agile management for software which directly endorses co-located development teams and regular rituals., promoting communication over documentation.

So to do this you need some structure over working hours, even if there is flexibility you need to ensure god overlap and be cognizant that is someone works i a different time zone or doesn't get online until e.g. mid-morning then this can leave other developers blocked. It is also clear that communication is best in person. Slack and zoom etc is definitely reasonable, but nothing beats a huddle around the white board hashing out a new architecture , or chit-chat over a coffee to agree on next steps

 

[OspreyO]

My entire career in IT is been possible to work remotely on projects, development, support, infrastructure. You'd build modular systems that interfaced with each other, but could be worked on and deployed independently. Agile seems to move back to monolithic large systems requiring large teams. The technology stack is complex and deep that small teams are rare now.

Before that I worked in graphics, and you'd often spend a few weeks on your own working away before needing to interact with anyone.

But micromanaging has crept into IT. I'm often blocked for months now waiting for something to go through a change request process, or be agreed before being able to get it done.

 

[OspreyO]

When these conversations come around about 9-5 etc, 4 day week etc. I'm reminded how often over the years I worked extra time and time again and then when you looked for flexibility (or the time) back you rarely got it.

 

[Jim99]

When these conversations come around about 9-5 etc, 4 day week etc. I'm reminded how often over the years I worked extra time and time again and then when you looked for flexibility (or the time) back you rarely got it.

Exactly. I once worked for a company who said they did flexi-time, so after working a few lates I told my boss on Friday I'd like to leave an hour early.

He said he'd let it go that one time, but that if I wanted to finish early I needed to come in early that same day. And was incredulous when I explained that I'd thought flexi-time implied that it would balance over the course of a week.

I didn't stick around long.

 

[D.P.]

My entire career in IT is been possible to work remotely on projects

Good for you but your anecdote of one has zero application on the real world.

As i said, i am absolutely for flexible working hours and WFH, but a balance has to be made.

 

[D.P.]

Exactly. I once worked for a company who said they did flexi-time, so after working a few lates I told my boss on Friday I'd like to leave an hour early.

He said he'd let it go that one time, but that if I wanted to finish early I needed to come in early that same day. And was incredulous when I explained that I'd thought flexi-time implied that it would balance over the course of a week.

I didn't stick around long.

Joking but i had a boss that said as long as work 8-6 in the office the he doesn't care when or where the other 4 hours were worked. I think he was only half joking when he said it.

On a serious note, work-life relationships have to be fully bidirectional. i've burned the midnight candle plenty of times for my current employer, now in my time of need i have zero expectations for the next 6 months while i take care of my family

 

[dlockers]

On a serious note, work-life relationships have to be fully bidirectional. i've burned the midnight candle plenty of times for my current employer, now in my time of need i have zero expectations for the next 6 months while i take care of my family

100%.

 

[malachi]

On a serious note, work-life relationships have to be fully bidirectional. i've burned the midnight candle plenty of times for my current employer, now in my time of need i have zero expectations for the next 6 months while i take care of my family

I learnt in my 30's to never break my back to make another person rich. If you dropped down dead tomorrow, they find your replacement next week.

 

[Rroff]

Done the last 5 days covering holiday with a 6th in the offering because things have hit the fan a bit and hating it. Can't wait to be back on 4 on 3 off.

 

[Lopéz]

My entire career in IT is been possible to work remotely on projects, development, support, infrastructure. You'd build modular systems that interfaced with each other, but could be worked on and deployed independently. Agile seems to move back to monolithic large systems requiring large teams. The technology stack is complex and deep that small teams are rare now.

Before that I worked in graphics, and you'd often spend a few weeks on your own working away before needing to interact with anyone.

But micromanaging has crept into IT. I'm often blocked for months now waiting for something to go through a change request process, or be agreed before being able to get it done.

I could never do my IT role in isolation. I can implement things in a locked cell, sure; but gathering requirements, backlog grooming, UAT, release planning, training.... for that I need stakeholder communication and that means at least some degree of same-time collaboration.

And the actual team size, in my scenario, is 1 - so this isn't even about needing to pair programme or collaborate with other IT people.

 

[Freefaller]

On top of that we have all these companies telling everyone they need to return back to the office now, taking away WFH.

Yes this is happening in public sector a lot. However more companies are also pushing this now. I can see why it's good to collaborate with people face to face but turning up to an office to sit on teams calls all day is pointless.

In my current employer I've made it very clear if I'm travelling over 2.5hrs to the office I'm not going to be on teams. Speak to me face to face else I'm not interested as the premise of being in the office is to be collaborative.

I applied.for a 4 day condensed week but they refused it.

 

[moogle]

Yes this is happening in public sector a lot. However more companies are also pushing this now. I can see why it's good to collaborate with people face to face but turning up to an office to sit on teams calls all day is pointless.

In my current employer I've made it very clear if I'm travelling over 2.5hrs to the office I'm not going to be on teams. Speak to me face to face else I'm not interested as the premise of being in the office is to be collaborative.

I applied.for a 4 day condensed week but they refused it.

Good point about being office-only if you're travelling in quite a distance. 2.5h a day is a trek! The collaboration thing is a load of BS anyway.

With regards to the 4 day week, I think it's a good thing to have more flexibility. If I had to choose though I'd prefer a hybrid WFH option over 4-day, however both is better.
Also it will need planning locally to make sure teams can provide cover for the business if every colleague opts in for it.

 

[NickK]

Actually one place actually commented they support an accelerated month - work longer hours and have a day off etc.. I thought that was time off in leu.. I remember one dutch colleague had so much time off in leu (because dutch law prohibits limiting the amount - you work you get it) so when she left she took it off when she left the company so only had a week in the office!

 

[neoboy]

I'm in a job that can be done completely remotely and would happily do my contracted 39 hours in 4 days to have a 3 day weekend.

 

[NickK]

I've always tried to get stuff sorted, but when you burn and additional 14 hours at 3am each day, the resulting days further down the week are perhaps less than productive. Most I've done in a week for a sustained period has been around 98 hours. After 3 months I was a zombie and I would be concerned about mental health due to the side effects/impact.

All depends if you're getting value out of a burn bright/quick but short or burn sustained. No point burning bright if the task has many steps that rely on non-partipating slow entities (external departments, decrepit processes or third parties). If you deliver early only to be told that you're fired because you're not needed anymore so recover in your own time..

Often the organisational processes are to blame for slow speed. What may take an engineer a couple of days then has to go through a 7 day ITIL lead time process (normal change) that doesn't add any quality or risk elements.
All that this does is make people's bosses look good that they've done their bit fast.. in reality the process fails to deliver speed/agility because the rest won't/don't.

Need to look at the WoW if the organisation wants to move fast.

 

[jaybee]

At one point it was looking like things would never be the same after COVID, and we would see the sense in allowing WFH country wide for as many jobs as possible. There does seem to be a shift back now. I am hearing of more and more companies wanting people back in the office. Fully remote IT roles are now becoming rare. Most job roles I see posted expect 2-3 days a week in the office hybrid approach. A lot are full time office presence roles. I've always said I will never go back to a 5 day working week in an office, nor will I do more than 2 days a week in a London role with my current commute, unless the pay was obscene.

Applying for a 4 day work week ay my place has been done, and shot down. A couple of people did get it way back and seem to have retained it somehow. But now that we have "hybrid working" it is always met with the response that you should be able to flex enough to not require a 4 day week. Which is BS frankly. Some people would just prefer to have 3 full work free days a week.

I think time measurement of productivity is often a strange one as well. There are times when I make more different in 2 days than 2 weeks. Depends on the role.

 

[dowie]

I've always tried to get stuff sorted, but when you burn and additional 14 hours at 3am each day, the resulting days further down the week are perhaps less than productive. Most I've done in a week for a sustained period has been around 98 hours. After 3 months I was a zombie and I would be concerned about mental health due to the side effects/impact.

Funnily enough, that's normal for analysts at some big banks and perhaps some top law firms too:

https://biws-support.s3.amazonaws.com/Goldman%20Sachs%20Working%20Conditions%20Survey.pdf

People complain about banker bonuses but most people can't handle that sort of job, there's a reason they go for mostly Oxbridge grads and that these people can end up earning more than MDs and C-level people at regular companies by their mid to late 20s. Even if they're performing sub-optimally they're still generally very bright people and when there's a huge amount of grunt work to be done then a very smart Oxbridge grad who is a bit sleep-deprived is still quite capable vs the average person.

That may be an issue for compressed hours though, you're working long hours not to hit some deadline or to deal with a huge quantity of work but instead to allow for an extra day off - the additional hours in a 10-hour day perhaps aren't as productive for the average person as say if those hours were worked in the morning of a 5th day. And indeed in general, even in an 8-hour day I suspect the last couple of hours and the first hour of the day are less productive vs say the 10am - lunchtime period, employers understandably would prefer to have 5 of those productive periods vs 4 if total hours worked are otherwise the same.

Commutes are another thing though, one of my first jobs was as a trader, not long hours like Investment bankers but I still had to be in the office by 7am, but in my 20s I was living in a central London flatshare and only had to walk down the road to get to work + it was casual dress code. So I was showered and out of the house within 5 minutes of getting up and after a brief walk I was at my desk. A massive difference there between myself and say some older guy with a wife and kids and a 1 hour+ commute to get in.

I think that's where hybrid work is the sweet spot for some jobs, certainly anything project-based, you ought to have some time in the office - face-to-face communication and personal relationships with people are pretty important but it's also super useful to eliminate the commute and have days where you can just get into the zone and work free of distractions.

 

[VRDoctor]

I already do a four day week (not compressed).

 

[Freefaller]

Even for triple my salary I wouldn't want to work 98hrs per week consistently. Sometimes sure, projects need to be finished and so on, but if it becomes the norm then something isnt' right.

 

[EvilRob]

Funnily enough, that's normal for analysts at some big banks and perhaps some top law firms too:

https://biws-support.s3.amazonaws.com/Goldman%20Sachs%20Working%20Conditions%20Survey.pdf

People complain about banker bonuses but most people can't handle that sort of job, there's a reason they go for mostly Oxbridge grads and that these people can end up earning more than MDs and C-level people at regular companies by their mid to late 20s. Even if they're performing sub-optimally they're still generally very bright people and when there's a huge amount of grunt work to be done then a very smart Oxbridge grad who is a bit sleep-deprived is still quite capable vs the average person.

It sounds like a lot of the people who do it can't handle it either! That link was eye opening.