Today's mass shooting in the US

[Roar87]

It's a topic of conversation that comes up all the time, as individuals they're mostly decent people, however as a society things are deeply broken and American society in general is very unhappy and very angry.

Basically exactly what I said, not only "mostly decent" but actually in general very friendly and polite, more so than people are over here.

Most are aware of how ridiculous their behavior is to outsiders, and the outside world in general - they're totally aware that they have very serious problems that need solving. But these problems are not for individuals to solve, they're complex societal problems that need serious solutions, and that's going to be very difficult to get when you have a society that's geared solely around making money.

For example, look at how the NRA has basically purchased (with pure cash) control of US senators, so that they can control and push their own agendas that suit them, rather than the interests of society. Most Americans want common sense gun legislation, but they're prevented because the NRA pay money to prevent it from happening - which I think most people will agree is a very broken and dysfunctional way to run things.

Essentially; rather than argue and debate on how things should operate - merely pay money to stop any opposing viewpoint from even being heard, let alone argued.

The NRA isn't the only problem, lobbying in American politics is just a massive problem in general, most people agree with that. There is support for the 2nd amendment in America too though.

You are basically saying that trump has nothing to do with divisions being reinforced and amplified in America?

Yes?

It's the Cathy Newman vs Jordan Peterson interview here, "so what you're saying is...". No, what he's saying in his post.

 

[Em3bbs]

I think a few people have misunderstood dowie's point, although some perhaps deliberately.

 

[200sols]

It's to demonstrate the rank hypocrisy of so many right wingers

Just as I thought, you don’t really care. You just want to score points against ‘right wingers’..

 

[easyrider]

No, I've said what is contained in my posts. Do you want to try again? You've had a few unsuccessful attempts so far.

You said people blaming trump for this shooting are silly?

 

[B&W]

Oh we're back to me disagreeing with the ideological teachings of Islam being twisted into me attacking Muslims as individuals. Good one. Maybe just don't debate if you can't understand nuanced points.

You do exactly what he did, tar all with the same brush.

 

[dowie]

You said people blaming trump for this shooting are silly?

I'd suggest you go back and read my posts. If you're a bit confused then please do quote the post you're questioning and I'm happy to clarify.

If you have a point to make, then could you attempt to articulate it?

 

[B&W]

You can make the same argument about conservative Islam in general... plenty of Islamist attackers regurgitate stuff from the Koran, see their victims as "infidels" etc... I suspect you'd have a double standard there though.

It is incorrect to do so in either case IMO.

Incorrect to blame extremist hate peddlers for the actions of extremists?

You are being disingenuous.

 

[Roar87]

You do exactly what he did, tar all with the same brush.

I think if that's what you take from my posts then you don't have the capacity to understand the distinction between criticising an ideology and attacking individuals. This doesn't surprise me since the left in general prefer to attack individuals rather than debate opinions and ideas. You would think Trump had got into the White House on the promise of gassing Mexicans based on half the posts here rather than just enforcing already existing immigration laws

 

[easyrider]

I'd suggest you go back and read my posts. If you're a bit confused then please do quote the post you're questioning and I'm happy to clarify.

If you have a point to make, then could you attempt to articulate it?

People blaming Trump for this are basically as silly as all the "thanks Obama" types we had a few years ago.

During the trump administration there has been an increase in hate crimes in America...

And Trumps racist rhetoric is partly to blame surely?

 

[B&W]

I think if that's what you take from my posts then you don't have the capacity to understand the distinction between criticising an ideology and attacking individuals. This doesn't surprise me since the left in general prefer to attack individuals rather than debate opinions and ideas. You would think Trump had got into the White House on the promise of gassing Mexicans based on half the posts here rather than just enforcing already existing immigration laws

You have on numerous occasions shown your hatred for Islam and thus Muslims. Saying that you can hate one while not hating the other is just lieing to yourself.

Me left wing, lmao. Trump rode on anti immigration feelings, he encouraged them. He encouraged anti Muslim views. He is still doing all this.

To me he is as bad as those extreme mullahs, both encouraging hatred for others blaming others to make people feel better about the **** that they are in.

 

[dowie]

Incorrect to blame extremist hate peddlers for the actions of extremists?

You are being disingenuous.

Well Trump isn't an extremist, I'm not being disingenuous here. I'm not defending him in general nor am I saying I agree with him or that anyone else should agree with him.

But you're being disingenuous here is you want to call an anti immigration stance "extremist", I've not looked at the latest polls but he does represent a large % of mainstream America.

Likewise - with that argument should Islamic clerics who oppose Western foreign policy re: intervention in the Middle East be blamed for Islamic terrorism? Lets say some of them have referred to infidels and opposed US troops being stationed in Saudi as it contains the two holy cities?

Personally I'd blame people who have actively called for attacks against the West, not people who've disagreed with or criticised the West or people who are anti Western etc... Likewise, it is silly to just blame people holding an anti immigration stance for attacks on immigrants. On the other hand white supremacists who seem to want to gear up for a "race war" etc.. are the sort of people I'd blame.

 

[MissChief]

Well Trump isn't an extremist, I'm not being disingenuous here. I'm not defending him in general nor am I saying I agree with him or that anyone else should agree with him.

But you're being disingenuous here is you want to call an anti immigration stance "extremist", I've not looked at the latest polls but he does represent a large % of mainstream America.

Likewise - with that argument should Islamic clerics who oppose Western foreign policy re: intervention in the Middle East be blamed for Islamic terrorism? Lets say some of them have referred to infidels and opposed US troops being stationed in Saudi as it contains the two holy cities?

Personally I'd blame people who have actively called for attacks against the West, not people who've disagreed with or criticised the West or people who are anti Western etc... Likewise, it is silly to just blame people holding an anti immigration stance for attacks on immigrants. On the other hand white supremacists who seem to want to gear up for a "race war" etc.. are the sort of people I'd blame.

It’s one thing to have an anti-immigration stance, it’s completely different to call all immigrants rapists and criminals as Trump has done and continues to do. His language reinforces the far rights beliefs and encourages them. Those at the far end of the scale, like the El Paso shooter, see his rhetoric and hear his words and use them as justification for their actions. It’s not difficult to see the correlation.

 

[B&W]

Well Trump isn't an extremist, I'm not being disingenuous here. I'm not defending him in general nor am I saying I agree with him or that anyone else should agree with him.

But you're being disingenuous here is you want to call an anti immigration stance "extremist", I've not looked at the latest polls but he does represent a large % of mainstream America.

Likewise - with that argument should Islamic clerics who oppose Western foreign policy re: intervention in the Middle East be blamed for Islamic terrorism? Lets say some of them have referred to infidels and opposed US troops being stationed in Saudi as it contains the two holy cities?

Personally I'd blame people who have actively called for attacks against the West, not people who've disagreed with or criticised the West or people who are anti Western etc... Likewise, it is silly to just blame people holding an anti immigration stance for attacks on immigrants. On the other hand white supremacists who seem to want to gear up for a "race war" etc.. are the sort of people I'd blame.

A man who wanted to ban all Muslims from coming to America isn't a extremist?

By that one action alone it proves his extremism.

His words encourage hate, they encourage a us and them attitude. He is divisive and helping white supremacists either unknowingly or deliberately.

We're not talking about Islamic extremists, you don't need to bring them into every thread. Keep on topic.

 

[McGray]

Lol at having to explain that.

 

[dowie]

During the trump administration there has been an increase in hate crimes in America...

And Trumps racist rhetoric is partly to blame surely?

Being pro or anti immigration are legitimate political positions regardless of the desire for people to get emotive about the topic. I'd not say that someone is personally responsible for it, likewise to some someone making a decision to leave the EU etc.. these are legit political positions.

You might well find that continued criticism of the West can end up having a side effect too, but that isn't goal necessarily and criticism of the west is also a perfectly legitimate position.

If you're going to attribute blame then I think citing unintended side effects, if they are indeed a result of the position taken, is a bit tenuous.

It’s one thing to have an anti-immigration stance, it’s completely different to call all immigrants rapists and criminals as Trump has done and continues to do. His language reinforces the far rights beliefs and encourages them. Those at the far end of the scale, like the El Paso shooter, see his rhetoric and hear his words and use them as justification for their actions. It’s not difficult to see the correlation.

I don't particularly want to get into defending stuff Trump has said as the more simple minded posters seem to get triggered and interpret it as support for him etc.. AFAIK he was referring to criminal migrants.

Regardless you can again make similar arguments about mainstream conservative Islamic clerics/critics of Western foreign policy.

I think it is highly dubious and I suspect that a lot of the people making the argument against Trump in this context wouldn't do so in the other context.

 

[Craterloads]

I would have to say trump is an extremist, his language and behaviour is unlike anything we have seen from a President before. Having concerns about immigration is one thing, and I think most can agree he has gone far beyond that on countless occasions.

He also certainly courts extremists, it’s his base unfortunately (“both sides”).

 

[Zenduri]

Side note.... another 9 dead in a mass shooting in Ohio. Cops killed him this time

 

[hurfdurf]

Some people are bending over backwards in this thread to try and make out Trump isn't that bad.

Its very telling.

It's clear there are a lot of racists on this forum who don't consider anything but the active physical attacks on non whites is racist to attempt to justify their own racist behaviour as not racist.

 

[Efour]

Its a terrible day when you have to defend Trump but please research all the cliche quotes that are often misquoted.
Many out of context and truncated to mean a whole different thing.
The guy does say a ton of idiotic, short sighted stuff, but so much is reappropriated to push agendas by both sides. People should listen to each other.

 

[dowie]

A man who wanted to ban all Muslims from coming to America isn't a extremist?

He didn't, it isn't particularly constructive if you're going to make things up. He did target some mostly muslim countries.

By that one action alone it proves his extremism.

His words encourage hate, they encourage a us and them attitude. He is divisive and helping white supremacists either unknowingly or deliberately.

We're not talking about Islamic extremists, you don't need to bring them into every thread. Keep on topic.

I'm talking about regular Islamic clerics, you can make exactly the same argument there, that they encourage an us and them attitude... "infidels" etc.. that they're helping extremist whether unknowingly our deliberately.

Essentially you'd be blaming more mainstream "conservatives" in both cases rather than the extremists.