Today's mass shooting in the US

[Felon]

In the rest of my post I referenced a YT channel that has analysed hundreds of videos of shooting incidents and it’s a repeated pattern.

If criminals were going in shooting from the get go it would be too dangerous to open a shop.

You can find a YT channel, that comes to just about any conclusion you want, - it means diddly squat with regards to actually understanding a problem.

Have you decided to change your mind yet and answer my question about burglary rates in the US?

It's a facile comparison.

There is an absolute gulf of difference between the US and the UK, the two countries are worlds apart - trying to compare robbery rates between the two countries, as a basis for an argument to do with guns, is totally flawed in every way.

 

[Stu999]

You can find a YT channel, that comes to just about any conclusion you want, - it means diddly squat with regards to actually understanding a problem.

It's a fascile comparison.

There is an absolute gulf of difference between the US and the UK, the two countries are worlds apart - trying to compare robbery rates between the two countries, as a basis for an argument to do with guns, is totally flawed in every way.

So you’re completely intellectually dishonest, got you.

So what do you attribute the lower per capita burglary rate in a country more than 3x the population of the UK to?

 

[Felon]

So what do you attribute the lower per capita burglary rate in a country more than 3x the population of the UK to?

I don't know, but I think it's like comparing apples and oranges because both countries are fundamentally different in so many ways.

If there is a difference I wouldn't claim to know the root cause behind it, why do you think there's a difference? and crucially - what point are you trying to illustrate in comparing or measuring that difference?

 

[potatolord]

So you’re completely intellectually dishonest, got you.

So what do you attribute the lower per capita burglary rate in a country more than 3x the population of the UK to?

Data on burglary, per capita, is here:

Burglary rate by country 2018 | Statista

In 2020, New Zealand had the highest burlary rate worldwide, with 1,353.6 occurences per 100,000 inhabitants.

www.statista.com

Trying to correlate that to gun ownership rates is a fool's errand, due to many confounding factors.

It is possible it correlates, but you would then have to explain why other countries (OECD high income) like Ireland have similar or lower rates to the US, despite having far more restrictive firearms laws.

Demonstrating a causal link there is not possible.

 

[Tefal]

If he's going to shoot me it would happen if I was armed or not.

But if I saw he had a gun and I had a gun in some scenarios I would have a chance to shoot.

If there were other customers in the shop and they saw he was trying to rob me then they could open fire on him.

I know it feels against our own psychology to advocate for every sane person to have a gun. But it is the only equaliser against armed crime.

If you were being robbed by an armed criminal and I saw it, I would shoot them.

So you're proposing guns as ppe?

Under this circumstance tesco has to arm its employees.

At which point its cheaper easier and safer for all and thus required by h&s for simply put the cashier behind bullet proof sheilds easily done doesn't have to be glass 1/4 inch steel should do with cameras and slots.

As you can't demand an employee provides thier own ppe that's crazy and discriminatory. And laws require gaurds or removal of risk be done before ppe. Ppe is a last resort.

At which point there is no point in a gun.

Ironically in a tesco garage the cashiers gun would be the most valuable item and target for robbery.

 

[Stu999]

@Screeeech - so you feel that you can confidently say untrained civilians having access to firearms doesn't prevent crimes but when I ask you about a specific crime you say it's too complex to know what the reasons are and you would't know? Do you think the potential presence of firearms would deter someone from attempting to commit burglary?

I know what you're going to say, "...but I said untrained civilians". Training or otherwise isn't as relevant for burglary, it's the deterrent factor of the possibility that you're going to be shot in the process.

FWIW I do actually agree with you on some things, it would be better if armed civilians were regularly training in how to safely use their firearms. I also agree that even if you were to hypothetically use your firearm in a completely justified situation it's still going to be one of the worst days of your life and you will be opened up to police investigation, the possibility of being sued in civil court by the person you shot or their family, etc., etc.

@potatolord - I'm not saying there's a one to one correlation between firearms ownership and burglary rates but I am saying I think it's a significant factor in the US. You would expect that there's probably a "natural rate" of various crimes for a given population size but that would be modified by different factors. So, taking Ireland for example, they have a much lower population than the UK so you would expect their per capita rate to be lower than the UK.

New Zealand having the highest per capita burglary rate is interesting. I imagine there it's affected by geographical isolation outside cities, slow police response rates, etc.

 

[StriderX]

There's far too many variables to have a casual conversation about this but if I had to take something from gun ownership and possibly less burglaries... it's that those burglaries that remain are far more violent and far more likely to result in your death.

I think I would confidently take 1000 non murderous invasions over 100 slaughters.

 

[Felon]

@Screeeech - so you feel that you can confidently say untrained civilians having access to firearms doesn't prevent crimes

I didn't say that.

There will be some circumstances where someone with a gun will prevent crime, but on the whole; the culmlative effect of arming everybody (or lots and lots of people) and giving them the power to take life at the pull of a trigger, ultimately creates a more dangerous country and society to live in.

All the gear - no idea, if you will.

 

[Werewolf]

There's far too many variables to have a casual conversation about this but if I had to take something from gun ownership and possibly less burglaries... it's that those burglaries that remain are far more violent and far more likely to result in your death.

I think I would confidently take 1000 non murderous invasions over 100 slaughters.

It also leads to a lot of dead people in non home invasions.

Pretty much every week, if not every day there is some idiot gun happy paranoid idiot in america who ends up shooting a member of their own family who has arrived home late or got up to go to the toilet etc, not to mention things like shooting people through the front door because "I thought they were criminals" when it was in fact a delivery driver or someone who made the mistake of knocking on the wrong house to the one they'd intended.

 

[Stu999]

There's far too many variables to have a casual conversation about this but if I had to take something from gun ownership and possibly less burglaries... it's that those burglaries that remain are far more violent and far more likely to result in your death.

I think I would confidently take 1000 non murderous invasions over 100 slaughters.

If you can back that scaremongering up with any evidence I'll be happy to look at it.

@Werewolf - the majority of gun deaths in the USA are suicide unfortunately.

 

[potatolord]

@potatolord - I'm not saying there's a one to one correlation between firearms ownership and burglary rates but I am saying I think it's a significant factor in the US. You would expect that there's probably a "natural rate" of various crimes for a given population size but that would be modified by different factors. So, taking Ireland for example, they have a much lower population than the UK so you would expect their per capita rate to be lower than the UK.

New Zealand having the highest per capita burglary rate is interesting. I imagine there it's affected by geographical isolation outside cities, slow police response rates, etc.

Well, we'll have to disagree on this one, i'm afraid.

A "per capita" rate is explicitly taking population size into consideration, so your point there doesn't stand.

It's a huge job to try to separate out what is driving burglary rates. Off the top of my head i can think of: geographic population distribution, demographic (e.g. lots of younger people), relative poverty, differences in data collection methods/ police reporting. There's loads more, but it's Sunday morning...

Pointing out gun ownership rates as a key factor isn't convincing without a huge amount of work. I'm not saying it's impossible- just unprovable.

I was surprised by new zealand, too!

 

[GGizmo]

So you're proposing guns as ppe?

Under this circumstance tesco has to arm its employees.

At which point its cheaper easier and safer for all and thus required by h&s for simply put the cashier behind bullet proof sheilds easily done doesn't have to be glass 1/4 inch steel should do with cameras and slots.

As you can't demand an employee provides thier own ppe that's crazy and discriminatory. And laws require gaurds or removal of risk be done before ppe. Ppe is a last resort.

At which point there is no point in a gun.

Ironically in a tesco garage the cashiers gun would be the most valuable item and target for robbery.

Ideally nobody should be armed. But sadly that isn't reality.

So we need to neutralise the gun by allowing regular people to use a gun. I doubt everyone would want (or pass the medical and background checks) a gun. But there needs to be enough people with guns so a robber can't be sure either way.

The media are selective in the mass gun events they cover nationally to push a certain narrative, by either suppressing stories by certain demographics or by not covering stories were a mass shooter as been killed by an armed citizen.

Armed 'hero' stopped mass shooter at Indiana mall

Elisjsha Dicken, 22, gestured to other shoppers to flee "as he engaged and closed in on the suspect", say police.

www.bbc.co.uk

“Good Guy With Gun” Swept Under Rug by Las Vegas Police

A good guy with a gun apparently stopped an active shooter in Las Vegas on Friday, almost certainly saving lives after a helmeted man opened fire with a rifle in a building lobby. But you probably didn’t hear about it. Why not?

www.heritage.org

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/18/us/el-paso-texas-mall-shooting-suspect-shot-civilian/index.html

 

[Felon]

So we need to neutralise the gun by allowing regular people to use a gun. I doubt everyone would want (or pass the medical and background checks) a gun. But there needs to be enough people with guns so a robber can't be sure either way.

Yeah - lets have more guns, to solve a problem with guns.

Makes perfect sense, they do this in places like Yemen - and there's no violence there at all because everyone has guns.

 

[Devilman]

So we need to neutralise the gun by allowing regular people to use a gun.

The very subject of this entire thread demonstrates time and again that this does not work. It doesn't "neutralize the gun" at all.

If anything I would suggest that those who do choose to still commit crimes to be more far more likely to use their gun.

 

[GGizmo]

People are complaining about the government all the time yet trust them for their safety

This is why we don't even have legalised pepper spray/cs gas.

Innocent people are left disarmed and vulnerable.

 

[potatolord]

People are complaining about the government all the time yet trust them for their safety

This is why we don't even have legalised pepper spray/cs gas.

Innocent people are left disarmed and vulnerable.

When was the last time you had a confrontation when you think a gun, or cs gas, would have been the best response? And what happened?

I'm not trying to score a point here- i am interested in why you feel a need to carry a weapon.

 

[GGizmo]

When was the last time you had a confrontation when you think a gun, or cs gas, would have been the best response? And what happened?

I'm not trying to score a point here- i am interested in why you feel a need to carry a weapon.

I think the thoughts of that question will depend on where we both live.

If I'm going into the main town centre via a train or bus I'm likely to come across sketchy situations. A lot of people I know walk around in pairs.

I can imagine it is worse for women, especially after night fall.

If your mother, sister or daughter had to walk home at night you wouldn't be concerned for their safety? Why can't they have at least a pepper spray?

If you go into any big city on foot at night it can be dangerous.

I forgot to answer your question. The last time I was involved in a confrontation was in my early 20s in Bolton. I was sitting in my car with the door open as it was hot. I just leaned down to pick up my cola drink and a guy appeared at the door, so I couldn't shut the door.

I was compromised because I was sitting down and he was standing up. Luckily I managed to talk my way out of the situation ( I'm not sure if I give him money or not) and got away unharmed and still had my car.

If I had a gun I would have at least pulled it out. If I had a spray I would have used it.

I had adrenaline. But I still had my wits about me as I was trying to figure out how to get out of the situation.

 

[jigger]

People are complaining about the government all the time yet trust them for their safety

This is why we don't even have legalised pepper spray/cs gas.

Innocent people are left disarmed and vulnerable.

You also arm those prepared to do harm. You’d just end up with people being gassed and more efficiently assaulted.

 

[Devilman]

I think the thoughts of that question will depend on where we both live.

If I'm going into the main town centre via a train or bus I'm likely to come across sketchy situations. A lot of people I know walk around in pairs.

I can imagine it is worse for women, especially after night fall.

If your mother, sister or daughter had to walk home at night you wouldn't be concerned for their safety? Why can't they have at least a pepper spray?

If you go into any big city on foot at night it can be dangerous.

I forgot to answer your question. The last time I was involved in a confrontation was in my early 20s in Bolton. I was sitting in my car with the door open as it was hot. I just leaned down to pick up my cola drink and a guy appeared at the door, so I couldn't shut the door.

I was compromised because I was sitting down and he was standing up. Luckily I managed to talk my way out of the situation ( I'm not sure if I give him money or not) and got away unharmed and still had my car.

If I had a gun I would have at least pulled it out. If I had a spray I would have used it.

I had adrenaline. But I still had my wits about me as I was trying to figure out how to get out of the situation.

Ok, now replay that same situation in your mind, but this time you AND the "bad guy" has a gun.

You're in a compromised position as you said yourself.

Do you really believe you're even going to manage to draw your gun and get it pointed in his direction before he notices and shoots you?

*Edit*

Look at the increasing rate of knife crime in the UK over recent years... Kids start carrying knives, so more kids start carrying knives to "protect themselves" from people carrying knives.

What is the end result? Many more people willing to use that knife they are now carrying.

Attempting to counter (or "neutralize") a weapon the "bad guy(s)" might be carrying by also carrying said weapon(s) is never the solution.

 

[Mr Badger]

Ok, now replay that same situation in your mind, but this time you AND the "bad guy" has a gun.

You're in a compromised position as you said yourself.

Do you really believe you're even going to manage to draw your gun and get it pointed in his direction before he notices and shoots you?

*Edit*

Look at the increasing rate of knife crime in the UK over recent years... Kids start carrying knives, so more kids start carrying knives to "protect themselves" from people carrying knives.

What is the end result? Many more people willing to use that knife they are now carrying.

Attempting to counter (or "neutralize") a weapon the "bad guy(s)" might be carrying by also carrying said weapon(s) is never the solution.

It's so much easier for situations to escalate to tragedy when everyone is tooled up. A road rage incident where both parties assume the other is going to shoot, the lost person who knocks on the wrong door after dark, the child taking mummy's gun out of her purse when she is distracted, the drunk depressed guy who on the spur of the moment sticks it in his mouth.

Not forgetting all the innocent people shot by the police in the US because they were assumed to be armed even when they were not.