Today's mass shooting in the US

[RaohNS]

a large group slowly making their way to the US border to claim asylum

So you are arguing anyone can go and live anywhere?

yet the right wing press use these talking points...

• Diseases
• Invasion
• Military aged men
• Middle Easterners and by association alone, potentially ISIS

They're Goddamn human beings, not vermin.

Accurate: Disease is a valid concern.
Accurate: Invasion (2nd definition: An incursion by a large number of people/3rd definition: An unwelcome intrusion)
Accurate: Military aged men (type and look at pictures, a large aliquot are exactly that)
Unclear: We haven't been sure of this/cant be sure.

Yes they are human beings but given statistically most women will face severe sexual violence and many of the men will come into contact with some very dangerous individuals... Where is their self concern?

It is not the right of everyone to be able to go and live in the US. There is a legal process. The second they cross that border without a visa they are breaking the law and are therefore criminals.

I know the law might not mean much to you, but its a generally good idea

 

[KillBoY_UK]

Seriously? Hhhhmm let me think.........their target, motive, manifesto (if there is one), associations, history, criminal records. Who said do nothing about external terrorism? Back to the caravan, which is a large group slowly making their way to the US border to claim asylum, yet the right wing press use these talking points...

• Diseases
• Invasion
• Military aged men
• Middle Easterners and by association alone, potentially ISIS

They're Goddamn human beings, not vermin.

Erm you did

Remind me again how many people have been killed in the US since 9/11 by left wing terrorists, compared to right wing and Muslim nut jobs?

Or do you think 9/11 was a inside job ?

 

[VincentHanna]

Eh? Where did he say that.

People often say "since 9/11" because if you include it, then it's a statistical anomaly isn't it....3000 people being killed in one day.

As somebody posted previously:

 

[Roar87]

Got an answer for us yet @Roar87 ?

Well Conservatives in general donate more than Liberals, private charity is actually in line in their ideology rather than leaving everything to the state as in socialism

 

[KillBoY_UK]

Eh? Where did he say that.

People often say "since 9/11" because if you include it, then it's a statistical anomaly isn't it....3000 people being killed in one day.

9/11 was a terrorist attack, and you mention is in the same line as whats the ammount of deaths from a left/right/muslim nut job

If you didn't want external terrorism to be consider in a reply why mention the largest external terrorist attack when talking about deaths from nut-job in what I presume you are coming from a domestic terrorism context.

And as what I posted what and who defines a left wing right wing etc attack and terrorism

 

[Deluxe1]

Trump knows what will happen if he lets this "caravan" in, there will be another and another all growing in size. Same as what is still happening now in Europe.

Needs to send a stern message that it's just not tolerated.

 

[RaohNS]

.

As somebody posted previously:

That type of image is exactly what Douglas Murray talks about when evidence is skewed. How many Islamist deaths since 12th September 2001.

How is right wing quantified? Why is it deaths and not attempts? The guy who shot Steve Scalise fpr example tried to kill as many Republicans as he could but failed. Unless you argue intent is negated because they don't succeed?

How far do you look at political violence too? Do you put it at micro or macro

 

[KillBoY_UK]

Trump knows what will happen if he lets this "caravan" in, there will be another and another all growing in size. Same as what is still happening now in Europe.

Needs to send a stern message that it's just not tolerated.

But it will feel good to let bunch of people in we know little about

 

[Eliot]

That type of image is exactly what Douglas Murray talks about when evidence is skewed. How many Islamist deaths since 12th September 2001.

How is right wing quantified? Why is it deaths and not attempts? The guy who shot Steve Scalise fpr example tried to kill as many Republicans as he could but failed. Unless you argue intent is negated because they don't succeed?

How far do you look at political violence too? Do you put it at micro or macro

Not attempts, because we are talking about deaths.....

 

[RaohNS]

Not attempts, because we are talking about deaths.....

But it is blind luck that prevents intent to kill from that intent being successful. The gunman intended on killing all those Republicans. I wonder what the intents stats would look like.

Some stats may be kept hush hush I.e. The Stephen Paddock mass shooting. At first glance the targeting of a Country music festival could prove to be one such example. His FB etc was scrubbed very quickly.

Edit: Politifact (leftist) states 36 right wing attacks. If Paddock did turn out a leftist attacker he would have killed more in once fell swoop

 

[VincentHanna]

And as what I posted what and who defines a left wing right wing etc attack and terrorism

https://www.start.umd.edu/pubs/START_IdeologicalMotivationsOfTerrorismInUS_Nov2017.pdf

Left-wing extremism: Violence in support of a revolutionary socialist agenda and the view that one is a protector of the populace. Characterized by disdain for capitalism, imperialism, and colonialism, and by a Marxist political focus and procommunist/socialist beliefs, or support for a decentralized, non-hierarchical sociopolitical system (e.g., anarchism).

Right-wing extremism: Violence in support of the belief that personal and/or national way of life is under attack and is either already lost or that the threat is imminent. Characterised by anti-globalism, racial or ethnic supremacy or nationalism, suspicion of centralised federal authority, reverence for individual liberty, and/or belief in conspiracy theories that involve grave threat to national sovereignty and/or personal liberty.

 

[Eliot]

But it is blind luck that prevents intent to kill from that intent being successful. The gunman intended on killing all those Republicans. I wonder what the intents stats would look like.

Some stats may be kept hush hush I.e. The Stephen Paddock mass shooting. At first glance the targeting of a Country music festival could prove to be one such example. His FB etc was scrubbed very quickly.

Its very hard to quantify?

How many did the vegas killer "intend to kill"???

 

[KillBoY_UK]

https://www.start.umd.edu/pubs/START_IdeologicalMotivationsOfTerrorismInUS_Nov2017.pdf

Left-wing extremism: Violence in support of a revolutionary socialist agenda and the view that one is a protector of the populace. Characterized by disdain for capitalism, imperialism, and colonialism, and by a Marxist political focus and procommunist/socialist beliefs, or support for a decentralized, non-hierarchical sociopolitical system (e.g., anarchism).

Right-wing extremism: Violence in support of the belief that personal and/or national way of life is under attack and is either already lost or that the threat is imminent. Characterised by anti-globalism, racial or ethnic supremacy or nationalism, suspicion of centralised federal authority, reverence for individual liberty, and/or belief in conspiracy theories that involve grave threat to national sovereignty and/or personal liberty.

Good definitions of left and right wing extremism but my question on what who defines a Right or left wing attack?

 

[KillBoY_UK]

But it is blind luck that prevents intent to kill from that intent being successful. The gunman intended on killing all those Republicans. I wonder what the intents stats would look like.

Some stats may be kept hush hush I.e. The Stephen Paddock mass shooting. At first glance the targeting of a Country music festival could prove to be one such example. His FB etc was scrubbed very quickly.

Edit: Politifact (leftist) states 36 right wing attacks. If Paddock did turn out a leftist attacker he would have killed more in once fell swoop

Are you talking about the Alexandria shooting ? yep could have easily had couple of dead Republican congressman and police dead

 

[Deleted member 68110]

Well Conservatives in general donate more than Liberals, private charity is actually in line in their ideology rather than leaving everything to the state as in socialism

Pfffft! Good one - Actually spat out my beer!

Anyway, got an answer for us yet?

 

[Deluxe1]

Actually spat out my beer!

Never had you down as a beer drinker more of soy latte type.

 

[Deleted member 68110]

Never had you down as a beer drinker more of soy latte type.

It's fizzy, almost clear, and European - don't throw away your stereotype just yet.

 

[StriderX]

Well Conservatives in general donate more than Liberals, private charity is actually in line in their ideology rather than leaving everything to the state as in socialism

Are these donations to those super churchs that quite literally just steal the money, spend it on mansions and ******* private jets?

HAHAHHAH, yeah that's the exact kind of charity i'd expect from right-wing fundy's, to liars, charlatans and thieves... as long as they preach the word of god.

 

[Amp34]

Trump knows what will happen if he lets this "caravan" in, there will be another and another all growing in size. Same as what is still happening now in Europe.

Needs to send a stern message that it's just not tolerated.

You're making a false argument here. It's not about "letting them in", it's about the efforts to dehumanise them and not let them claim asylum (where they would be processed and only those genuinely requiring asylum would be allowed in).

Unless of course your stern message is that desperate people are sub human and should be treated as such?

 

[Amp34]

But it is blind luck that prevents intent to kill from that intent being successful. The gunman intended on killing all those Republicans. I wonder what the intents stats would look like.

Some stats may be kept hush hush I.e. The Stephen Paddock mass shooting. At first glance the targeting of a Country music festival could prove to be one such example. His FB etc was scrubbed very quickly.

Edit: Politifact (leftist) states 36 right wing attacks. If Paddock did turn out a leftist attacker he would have killed more in once fell swoop

I'd be interested to know where you think this line of thinking would go. To me it suggests that either right wing extremists are somehow an order of magnitude luckier than left wing extremists - assuming a similar intent from both sides, or that right wing extremists are an order of magnitude cleverer than the left wing extremists that somehow failed so many times.

Neither seems as likely as the most obvious - that there are a lot more right wing extremist attacks in the first place.

Regarding the Stephen Paddock example, there's no evidence that he was some kind of left wing extremist, in fact there's more to argue the opposite. There are multiple accounts of him being on the "government taking our guns" side of things, along with FEMA related rants. AFAIK officially it hasn't been ascribed to either, because there's presumably no definitive evidence either way.

The maps are also not about the number of dead - that's a measure of "success" - rather the threat posed due to the number of extremists in each camp. Using historic actions there is a much greater threat of a right wing, or an Islamist attack than a left wing one.

Good definitions of left and right wing extremism but my question on what who defines a Right or left wing attack?

Usually the police or investigating party (FBI in the US for example). Either as part of a trial if the person is alive, or as part of an investigation into the act if they aren't.