Today's mass shooting in the US

It is.

One of the more common examples of an "Unarmed Suspect Shooting" is the so called waistband shooting. (Where the cop shoots a suspect who apears to be going for his pockets but before a weapon becomes visible)

In around 50% of cases the suspect is subsequently found to be unarmed (Big fuss of course) Unfortunatly this also means that in around 50% of caaese the suspect IS armed and WAS going for aweapon. This figure is often ignored by campaigners.

It is a brave (Foolhardy even) cop who is, literally, willing to toss a coin for his life on the grounds thast an uncoperative suspect might not be armed

As I have said before on the matter...
So you're saying that in a nation awash with guns unarmed people need to accept the elevated chance of being shot by a policeman because that policeman is in righteous fear of his life and has a right to shoot people so he can get home safely?

And all of that is an argument in favour of guns to your mind?
 
So you're saying that in a nation awash with guns unarmed people need to accept the elevated chance of being shot by a policeman because that policeman is in righteous fear of his life and has a right to shoot people so he can get home safely?

And all of that is an argument in favour of guns to your mind?

No, I am saying that

a) I am sympathetic towards US Police.

and

b) I am astonished that any "Suspect" (And in particular the Black ones), when confronted by a US Officer makes an ass of themselves and sets themselves up to be shot at.

Everybody should know the rules by now (And especially the Black people)

If you are stopped by a US Cop, dont be a jerk because the Cop is always likely to come off the better.

Don't jig around, Do as you are told, dont do the "Gun" thing with your hands, dont make sudden moves and definitely dont grab for your trousers or pockets... (and so on)

It is all quite simple really.
 
Black people have to give their kids "The talk" about police violence and how to behave

White people don't have to do this


I am sympathetic, I really am.

It will suck being a member of a demographic where over a third of its members will serve a prison sentence at some point in their lives.

It DOES mean that you will always be regarded with suspicion and treated as a potential criminal in any encouter with the Police (Rememebr what I said about Black cops shooting Black suspects?) and indeed with the wider public

(There was an article the other day, which I cant now find the link for, where a young Black Man (Psychology student?) carried out an experiment on peoples reactions in a shopping mall with regrd to asking random strangers if he could borrow their phone. Although a couple of Black people agreed. Unsurprisingly None of the White people approached were willing to do so. Sad, Yes. Surprising, No!)

But being a jerk and getting yourself shot isn't going to change any of that. It will just get you dead!
 
It's even more ridiculous, when you consider that in the last two mass shootings (thousand oaks), (and countless others) police officers - who've gone in to take out the shooter have actually been killed and rendered ineffective, which really does paint a frightening picture. It also totally demolishes this deluded, mis-informed notion that a "good guy with a gun" can take out a bad guy with a gun, therefore more guns equals an effective solution. If the ultimate good-guys (police) can't win in a confrontation - that argument ends up in the abyss.

You cannot go into a fight with someone, armed only with a 9mm or .45, if the enemy has an assault rifle and expect to win, the best you can do is to distract them, actually engaging them in close quarters combat in such an imbalanced scenario is tantamount to suicide.

Whilst I strongly believe, that there are difficult social and mental problems behind the vast majority of these mass shootings (Parkland would be a good example) I think it's utterly insane to have a situation, where you can obtain a weapon such as an AR-15 for personal use as a civilian, absolutely insane.

It allows a civilian, whom with no training, no real due diligence, no real analysis into their personality, can equip themselves with a level of firepower that was designed for battlefield use - that is, the rapid efficient killing of people, that's what an AR-15 is designed to do - not self defence, not hunting, because it evolved directly from the original fully-automatic M16 assault rifle.

I've fired many different variants of assault rifles, including many different versions of the AR-15. The thing that surprised me about it more than anything, is that compared to a traditional classic rifle such as an M4, M16 or an AK47 the AR-15 is absolutely tiny, half the weight and feels more like a toy than a real gun. I'm pretty confident you could give an AR-15 to a ten year old, and they'd be able to commit mass murder, more than any other weapon. It ends up posing a simple legitimate question; is this a sensible thing for society at large to have access too?

I can accept pistols for self defence, with the proper controls - I can also accept rifles and long-guns for hunting, again with the proper controls (bolt action, limited magazine, non-compact), same with shotguns - but this current situation with compact, semi-auto assault rifles is ridiculous.
 
I've fired many different variants of assault rifles, including many different versions of the AR-15. The thing that surprised me about it more than anything, is that compared to a traditional classic rifle such as an M4, M16 or an AK47 the AR-15 is absolutely tiny, half the weight and feels more like a toy than a real gun. I'm pretty confident you could give an AR-15 to a ten year old, and they'd be able to commit mass murder, more than any other weapon. It ends up posing a simple legitimate question; is this a sensible thing for society at large to have access too?

https://savannaharsenal.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/7803408114_02625915f4_b.jpg

What are you talking about? An AR-15 is the same platform as an M4A1, it just lacks the full auto function the military M4 has.
 
https://savannaharsenal.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/7803408114_02625915f4_b.jpg

What are you talking about? An AR-15 is the same platform as an M4A1, it just lacks the full auto function the military M4 has.

I mentioned the M4 on purpose, because I knew one of about three or four pro-gun posters, would read that and quote it directly as being wrong, to demonstrate how they don't want to engage in the larger more important debate, they just want to argue about largely meaningless details.
 
I mentioned the M4 on purpose, because I knew one of about three or four pro-gun posters, would read that and quote it directly as being wrong, to demonstrate how they don't want to engage in the larger more important debate, they just want to argue about largely meaningless details.

You said the AR-15 is tiny, a toy, about half the weight of an M4. An AR-15 weighs 2.97kg and an M4 weighs 3.38kg, mostly due to the fact an M4 has a larger 30 round magazine vs the 20 rounds an AR-15 holds. Essentially you just made up a load of crap hoping no one would call you out on it. Please stick to the facts instead of using hyperbole. The only advantage an AR-15 has over a pistol is a slightly larger magazine and increased muzzle velocity, these don't make it a super killing machine when compared to a pistol in CQB.

i guess maybe he's comparing a standard "milspec" gun to the more modern race guns.

although outside of 3-gun the ar15/m4 platform has got a little tubbier since 'nam

It's become more ergonomic, but lighter and more reliable
 
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YPlease stick to the facts instead of using hyperbole. The only advantage an AR-15 has over a pistol is a slightly larger magazine and increased muzzle velocity, these don't make it a super killing machine when compared to a pistol in CQB.

This is absolute, total, pure and utter nonsense.

A police standard pistol, (Glock 22) has a muzzle velocity of around 1200 feet per second.

An AR-15 has a muzzle velocity of around 3300 feet per second. (almost three times faster)

A bullet traveling from a pistol like a glock 22, will have a tendency to cut a hole through a victim and come out the other side intact, or embed itself in the victim intact - which makes the damage more survivable, because such injuries can be dealt with more easily by medical teams.

A bullet travelling from an AR-15 or rifle, in general is carrying around three times more kinetic energy than that from the pistol, because it's travelling three times faster. The result is that when the bullet impacts the victim, it breaks apart and when that energy dissipates through the target - it causes a tremendous amount of damage, internal organs can be literally blown to bits to the point where they're unidentifiable, essentially - the wounds in question are more closely related to what you'd find on a battlefield, and tend to be far less survivable than from a regular pistol injury.

Don't take my word for it - you can read the account of a Radiologist, who treated the victims of the Parkland massacre for yourself;

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...land-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

I put it to you - and anybody who wants to argue it; that an AR15 has no useful purpose in a civilised society, other than the efficient, easy destruction of people.
 
This is absolute, total, pure and utter nonsense.

A police standard pistol, (Glock 22) has a muzzle velocity of around 1200 feet per second.

An AR-15 has a muzzle velocity of around 3300 feet per second. (almost three times faster)

A bullet traveling from a pistol like a glock 22, will have a tendency to cut a hole through a victim and come out the other side intact, or embed itself in the victim intact - which makes the damage more survivable, because such injuries can be dealt with more easily by medical teams.

A bullet travelling from an AR-15 or rifle, in general is carrying around three times more kinetic energy than that from the pistol, because it's travelling three times faster. The result is that when the bullet impacts the victim, it breaks apart and when that energy dissipates through the target - it causes a tremendous amount of damage, internal organs can be literally blown to bits to the point where they're unidentifiable, essentially - the wounds in question are more closely related to what you'd find on a battlefield, and tend to be far less survivable than from a regular pistol injury.

Don't take my word for it - you can read the account of a Radiologist, who treated the victims of the Parkland massacre for yourself;

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...land-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

I put it to you - and anybody who wants to argue it; that an AR15 has no useful purpose in a civilised society, other than the efficient, easy destruction of people.

It is a lot more complicated than that - frangible v non-frangible rounds (and all the complications of hollow points, FMJ, penetrators, etc.), distance and any conditions that might induce tumbling, quality of the rounds themselves such as reloads or aging powder, etc. then you have stuff like the FN 557 with its .224 ammo.

Not to mention there are all kinds of handgun calibres from slow big mass rounds through to tiny fast ones and so on.
 
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Funny that, just waiting for some racist fringe Republican to actually come out and say only certain good guys should be carrying in these situations.
 
It is a lot more complicated than that

I don't think so - you'll always get some level of variation depending on the type of rounds, but across the board - if you read the studies of gunshot wounds by medical journals, wounds that occur from a high velocity round generally tend to do vast amounts more damage than that of a handgun round, with very little exception.
 
You guys do realise that when a white guy gets shot accidentally it's basically considered not news?

Even though Black guys are disproportionately more likely to be shot by Police, the number of white guys killed is still double, yet you literally never read a news story about a white guy getting accidentally shot. There's no outrage, no front page news story, no twitter trending; it's just not a thing.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
 
You guys do realise that when a white guy gets shot accidentally it's basically considered not news?

Even though Black guys are disproportionately more likely to be shot by Police, the number of white guys killed is still double, yet you literally never read a news story about a white guy getting accidentally shot. There's no outrage, no front page news story, no twitter trending; it's just not a thing.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

But we're on about innocent people being shot, that graph doesn't detail how many of those where innocent or accidental shootings, so it doesn't back up your assertion tbh.

Because it certainly makes headline news when innocent white women get shot..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...aring-a-possible-rape/?utm_term=.bac719274237
 
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