Tower block fire - london

Dolph said:
It is absolutely required. The way the building behaved during the fire is something that should not have happened, and in order to determine what went wrong, nothing can be off limits.

We must do everything necessary to ensure this can never happen again, and to ensure that, if appropriate, anyone who knowingly endangered lives is punished.
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Dolph without sounding too gushing.

Economically I'm rarely if ever going to agree with you, but a sane post, on an emotive/charged topic at this point in time, especially from a typically right leaning/mided individual, is simply massively appreciated.
 
stewski said:
So, are you disagreeing or agreeing, that an investigation that doesn't hold the regulators or the regulations above the law is required?
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I'm saying you don't understand what regulations are.

Acts are law and they are very purposefully written in a loose way.

Regulations are guide lines on how to try and meet the Acts requirements.

Standards are passed by parliament formed based on the scientific understanding at the time, detailing the minimum standard to which structures should be built. Which is why they are updated and why people receive compensation for historic conditions cause by these(i.e asbestos).

What has happened here(I suspect) is that individuals and groups of individuals haven't conformed to the standards or met their regulatory duties there for breaking the act(law). Now if they have been found to meet these and without outside interference this has occurred then the regulation/regulator(government) will also be subject to investigation and punishments.
 
Dolph said:
Some on the left seem more concerned with class warfare and trying to oust the recently re-elected government than in actually helping the people impacted.
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I've been watching the news all day and the media have been using the whole event to heap praise on Corbyn and attack May, they're probably gutted May visited victims in a hospital privately so that one of their paid agitaters couldn't verbally embarrass her live on air.

Both the US and UK seems to be under some sort of establishment/media attack by the left to oust their legitimately elected governments, or at the very least deligitimise and undermine them. It's amazingly anti-democratic.
 
arknor said:
why would it matter? the cladding didn't cause the fire and if it had sprinklers it wouldn't have mattered
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Well considering they are now carrying out urgent checks to see if any other building is clad in the same stuff it certainly does seem to matter.
 
mmj_uk said:
I've been watching the news all day and the media have been using the whole event to heap praise on Corbyn and attack May, they're probably gutted May visited victims in a hospital privately so that one of their paid agitaters couldn't verbally embarrass her live on air.

Both the US and UK seems to be under some sort of establishment/media attack by the left to oust their legitimately elected governments, or at the very least deligitimise and undermine them. It's amazingly anti-democratic.
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Democracy does not preclude criticism of government or it's officials - you're thinking of Communism.
 
Xiler said:
I'm saying you don't understand what regulations are.

Acts are law and they are very purposefully written in a loose way.

Regulations are guide lines on how to try and meet the Acts requirements.

Standards are passed by parliament formed based on the scientific understanding at the time, detailing the minimum standard to which structures should be built. Which is why they are updated and why people receive compensation for historic conditions cause by these(i.e asbestos).

What has happened here(I suspect) is that individuals and groups of individuals haven't conformed to the standards or met their regulatory duties there for breaking the act(law). Now if they have been found to meet these and without outside interference this has occurred then the regulation/regulator(government) will also be subject to investigation and punishments.
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So aside from you schooling me (maybe necessarily) are you agreeing with my statement about the nature of the investigation required?
 
stewski said:
So aside from you schooling me (maybe necessarily) are you agreeing with my statement about the nature of the investigation required?
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If you really want me to stroke your ego then YES it is. That's the process which happens with every incident in construction and 99% of the time its people not following standards/regs.
 
stewski said:
Dolph without sounding too gushing.

Economically I'm rarely if ever going to agree with you, but a sane post, on an emotive/charged topic at this point in time, especially from a typically right leaning/mided individual, is simply massively appreciated.
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No problem. I won't pretend I have the required knowledge to determine exactly what has gone wrong with this block, but it is very clear something major did, and we have to find out what. It may just be a perfect storm of bad luck or genuine mistakes (although I doubt it), but it must be looked at strongly as it is the only way we can ensure it cannot happen again. If the regulations aren't up to what they should be, then they need to changed, even if that means we render some blocks unhabitable and have to rehouse everyone in them.

Likewise, if the regulations were not followed, or installations not done correctly that contributed, this must be dealt with to the full extent of the law.

What I will disagree with is those trying to use this situation for political ends. This shouldn't be a political issue, certainly not at this point, until we understand what happened here to cause this terrible loss of life. For me, fixing the problem has to take priority over fixing the blame. Get these people into homes, get them money to start replacing their property. Start working on identification and making the building safe, and start finding out how we ensure this never happens again.
 
Xiler said:
If you really want me to stroke your ego then YES it is. That's the process which happens with every incident in construction and 99% of the time its people not following standards/regs.
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Well as you did post that technically the fire service didn't get their advice massively wrong, I was wondering at what point you'd let reality interfere with your knowledge of the law/regulation and standards?
 
amigafan2003 said:
Democracy does not preclude criticism of government or it's officials - you're thinking of Communism.
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While this is true, legitimate criticism is not what we are seeing here. What we are seeing is rabble rousing after losing a democratic election with a very high turn out.
 
stewski said:
Well as you did post that technically the fire service didn't get their advice massively wrong, I was wondering at what point you'd let reality interfere with your knowledge of the law/regulation and standards?
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oh my...... REALITY is that type of investigation that happens with every incident investigated by the HSE. It starts from the cause and works its way up to the highest factor
 
Dolph said:
No problem. I won't pretend I have the required knowledge to determine exactly what has gone wrong with this block, but it is very clear something major did, and we have to find out what. It may just be a perfect storm of bad luck or genuine mistakes (although I doubt it), but it must be looked at strongly as it is the only way we can ensure it cannot happen again. If the regulations aren't up to what they should be, then they need to changed, even if that means we render some blocks unhabitable and have to rehouse everyone in them.

Likewise, if the regulations were not followed, or installations not done correctly that contributed, this must be dealt with to the full extent of the law.

What I will disagree with is those trying to use this situation for political ends. This shouldn't be a political issue, certainly not at this point, until we understand what happened here to cause this terrible loss of life. For me, fixing the problem has to take priority over fixing the blame. Get these people into homes, get them money to start replacing their property. Start working on identification and making the building safe, and start finding out how we ensure this never happens again.
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As long as you had a similar opinion of the ex home secretary who had recently ditched 10's of thousands of police then suggesting, enough is enough and new legislation is needed to combat terror (a full 7 years after doing whatever she thought needed so far) was wrong, I'll support your position!
 
dowie said:
so like a public inquiry that has already been promised... and an investigation by the police/fire service
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As I have stated (and others) an inquest(s) is preferable to a government lead public enquiry, although personally having watched the CPS dig into MPs/Electoral fraud I have no problem with their involvement here!
 
stewski said:
As I have stated (and others) an inquest(s) is preferable to a government lead public enquiry, although personally having watched the CPS dig into MPs/Electoral fraud I have no problem with their e=involvement here!
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It's highly unlikely that there will be an inquest whilst there's an active police investigation.
 
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