Traffic filters will divide Oxford into six '15 minute' neighbourhoods

[Terminal_Boy]

No you cycle to your local supermarket with a 15L cycle basket and a small rucksack or panniers. Do a small shop every couple of days.
Controls your spending and wastage, environmentally sound as well as good exercise. You can still build up a tin or dry goods cupboard for the nuclear war or pandemic event just around the corner.

Try that with a family of four with two school age children and both parents working.

The weekly family shop via car is the most time and money efficient method for very busy people.

 

[Hagar]

Nothing will change as long as people continue to elect a government committed to dismantling the state and infrastructure.

The result of cutting funding is **** services and money being clawed back any way possible. This is what people have voted for the last 12 years.

People have voted for less tax since King John came to the throne and very few governments raise taxation willingly. It has been that way for more than twelve years.

 

[fez]

Its a classic example of a lack of joined up thinking. I think that we should 100% make it really hard for people to use their cars unless necessary. The issue is that they make it really hard but not as hard or expensive as taking public transport. Public transport cannot be run for profit and work. It has to be seen as a social good and a way for people to contribute to the economy in a secondary way.

The same thing is going to happen with the trains. Less and less people will use them as they can work from home so the existing customers will foot more of the burden until they can't use it and so on and so forth until its dead. Some things cannot be run for profit. Every other country with a good public transport system knows this. They know that allowing their population to easily and cheaply move around move than outweighs the pure cost of it.

 

[fez]

Try that with a family of four with two school age children and both parents working.

The weekly family shop via car is the most time and money efficient method for very busy people.

Unless you can't use it, delivery is easily the most efficient method. Better for the environment, quicker, easier and almost certainly cheaper. I haven't gone into a supermarket by choice for about 6 years. They give you a 1 or 2 hour slot. Deliver to your door and you can basically do the same shop each week in about 2 minutes on your phone. Its magic. Costs nothing because I use clubcard vouchers.

 

[ci_newman]

Its a classic example of a lack of joined up thinking. I think that we should 100% make it really hard for people to use their cars unless necessary. The issue is that they make it really hard but not as hard or expensive as taking public transport. Public transport cannot be run for profit and work. It has to be seen as a social good and a way for people to contribute to the economy in a secondary way.

The same thing is going to happen with the trains. Less and less people will use them as they can work from home so the existing customers will foot more of the burden until they can't use it and so on and so forth until its dead. Some things cannot be run for profit. Every other country with a good public transport system knows this. They know that allowing their population to easily and cheaply move around move than outweighs the pure cost of it.

I was pleasantly surprised at how easy and convenient it was to use the Winchester Park & Ride when I visited the city a couple of weekends ago. £3.50 for an entire day of parking and the ticket cost also covered the bus transport for an entire car-load of people. 10minutes by bus and the whole city centre was effectively pedestrianised.

I pay more than that to park at any of the shopping centres for more than an hour locally.

 

[Freefaller]

I Personally think the more continental - small shop as and when needed is far more sensible, but it's a hard habit to get into when we're used to bulk buying.

 

[SPG]

E-scoters.... Oh wait the government think they are a toy....

****Wits

 

[fez]

I was pleasantly surprised at how easy and convenient it was to use the Winchester Park & Ride when I visited the city a couple of weekends ago. £3.50 for an entire day of parking and the ticket cost also covered the bus transport for an entire car-load of people. 10minutes by bus and the whole city centre was effectively pedestrianised.

I pay more than that to park at any of the shopping centres for more than an hour locally.

Its great isn't it when its subsidised and works. Unfortunately in most places it doesn't.

I Personally think the more continental - small shop as and when needed is far more sensible, but it's a hard habit to get into when we're used to bulk buying.

I could get behind that but we would have to change our whole culture or we would starve. My partner and I both work long hours and would spend our whole weekend shopping if we tried to shop like that.

 

[fez]

E-scoters.... Oh wait the government think they are a toy....

****Wits

Thats because a lot of people who use them behave like complete ***** on them. You can't ride them safely on the roads and a lot of people don't ride them safely on the pavement because why would you got at 7mph when you could do 15. If they build the infrastructure for bikes and e-scooters it would be great. But they won't because motorists are king and hate both.

 

[ci_newman]

Its great isn't it when its subsidised and works. Unfortunately in most places it doesn't.



I could get behind that but we would have to change our whole culture or we would starve. My partner and I both work long hours and would spend our whole weekend shopping if we tried to shop like that.

There would be increased costs too. Smaller corner shops are often 20-30% more expensive for the equivilent products compared to a large supermarket, and have a much smaller range of options.

 

[SPG]

Thats because a lot of people who use them behave like complete ***** on them. You can't ride them safely on the roads and a lot of people don't ride them safely on the pavement because why would you got at 7mph when you could do 15. If they build the infrastructure for bikes and e-scooters it would be great. But they won't because motorists are king and hate both.

Nonsense argument.

People drive cars at +30mph
Cyclist ride way above 7mph on the road and the pavement.

It's just new that's all it is.

 

[Hades]

I love the discussion of solutions that work in international metropolis, like that is going work in rural market towns. The density of customers and money in London, Berlin, Paris is just in no way comparable with Boston (lincs) or Shrewsbury. Even tight, rich cities like Oxford or Cambridge can barely scrape to anything close to a second rate version of what is being discussed. I use my local butchers on a weekly basis but the idea of using something other than supermarket for groceries and on a daily basis just doesn't fly. It's 6 minute drive to the nearest (very) small town and the idea that I and everyone else for who it is the local shopping precinct can just pop in on a daily basis won't work. Not enough car parking spaces too many people. Supermarkets are a reflection of the structure of the modern World. When we've robotised everything and we're all redundant on handouts we'll be able to usher in this distributed Utopia.

Ironically that distributed utopia is what we used to have. I was born in the 60's and grew up in the 70's. My mum worked part time and many women didn't go out to work back then, instead working just as hard as a home maker. She had time to do the family shopping which was local to us. She would walk down to the parade of shops near us and go to the local independently owned green grocers, bakers, butchers and sweet shop every few days. We had milk and butter delivered by the Unigate electric floats that used to drive around. I recall the clinking sound of the floats with all the bottles jiggling in the back coming round at about 6am as I was waking up for school. At Christmas the milkman would take orders for turkey etc.

Now I have a family myself, my wife and I must both work office jobs to pay the mortgage and support the car necessary to do the same thing at a supermarket we have to drive to in the evening or weekend outside of work. Things won't be any better once we automate everything because there will be very few ways for most people to make money anymore. What's going to happen is that people's freedom of movement will be severely restricted as only the wealthy will be able to afford to go anywhere. Everything will be done online; all shopping, "work" (whatever that will be), social interactions, etc. The world is about to get much, much smaller for everyone but the wealthy.

We've already had the utopia and we aren't going back to it any time soon.

 

[GGizmo]

e:

too many exemptions and time-locked activities for this to be anything other than a Nonsense Outcome.

Mobile gaming structure comes to the real world.

 

[Uther]

Ironically that distributed utopia is what we used to have. I was born in the 60's and grew up in the 70's. My mum worked part time and many women didn't go out to work back then, instead working just as hard as a home maker. She had time to do the family shopping which was local to us. She would walk down to the parade of shops near us and go to the local independently owned green grocers, bakers, butchers and sweet shop every few days. We had milk and butter delivered by the Unigate electric floats that used to drive around. I recall the clinking sound of the floats with all the bottles jiggling in the back coming round at about 6am as I was waking up for school. At Christmas the milkman would take orders for turkey etc.

Now I have a family myself, my wife and I must both work office jobs to pay the mortgage and support the car necessary to do the same thing at a supermarket we have to drive to in the evening or weekend outside of work. Things won't be any better once we automate everything because there will be very few ways for most people to make money anymore. What's going to happen is that people's freedom of movement will be severely restricted as only the wealthy will be able to afford to go anywhere. Everything will be done online; all shopping, "work" (whatever that will be), social interactions, etc. The world is about to get much, much smaller for everyone but the wealthy.

We've already had the utopia and we aren't going back to it any time soon.

You just described my childhood too. People aren't going to like having all their nice things taken away but I think you're right...

 

[fez]

Nonsense argument.

People drive cars at +30mph
Cyclist ride way above 7mph on the road and the pavement.

It's just new that's all it is.

Go and take one of these escooters on our crappy roads and see how long you last before you are under a bus because you hit a pothole as deep as your entire wheel and then tell me its nonsense. The issue with escooters isn't speed, its safety. You can make this better but currently its not there.

I very rarely see people other than small children or oiks on their bikes on the pavement and they are rarely going at speed. I see plenty of oiks on scooters riding like knobs both on and off the road.

 

[a1ex2001]

There’s school buses between the villages and there are stories of a mythical bus that runs into the nearest town on market day, but I’ve not seen it in 4 years of living here.

If you live in a rural area, you either rely on others (La Poste do a great meal and pharmacy delivery service for the elderly) or you have a car.

Nobody is saying you shouldn’t have a car, I never get this argument whenever anyone talk about reducing car use people just start listing use cases that need a car! Well obviously some things will still need a car but people living in big cities owning 2,3 or even 4 cars per family isn’t sustainable and will eventually be made unaffordable. Road charging will make a massive difference, I would expect rural journeys to cost significantly less than short journeys in a city the days of hoping in your car for a 1 mile drive in a built up area should be over.

 

[KompuKare]

I Personally think the more continental - small shop as and when needed is far more sensible, but it's a hard habit to get into when we're used to bulk buying.

There would be increased costs too. Smaller corner shops are often 20-30% more expensive for the equivilent products compared to a large supermarket, and have a much smaller range of options.

And the way this works with most German towns I have visited is that they have mid-sized supermarkets spread out in several places. No monster Tesco Extra, but rather many mid-sized ones (think a typical Aldi/Lidl branch), and nearby. Or at least in the town I have visited the most often that is the case - although that is Freiburg which the 2nd most cycle friendly German city.

But the likes of Tesco Extra really encourage an American style of shopping with Walmart hypermarkets only reachable by car. There should be a max retail space in the planning regs but there isn't really.

RoI did have a max size and when Ikea came to Dublin had to be changed - and I call Ireland Tír na carr as it's the most car crazy place I have ever been to - but Irish planners are at least theoritcally aware that monster retail parks are a bad thing.

And a lot of this is down to poor planning over the decades - and remember that the Dutch used to have really bad accident rates until things like Stop de Kindermoord campaign in the 1970s - and this is still ongoing. There are brand new estates near me where the bus has to reverse to get out, there is no walkable route to the rest of town etc. If brown envelopes are not being passed around, the only conclusion I can reach is that the planners are incompent.

 

[Freefaller]

I have to say when I go back to the motherland or fatherland I do love doing the daily shop - i.e. getting bread on a daily basis, and going to the butcher's for a day or two's worth of meat, and the veggies every couple of days. It doesn't actually add a huge amount of effort, but it's just a habit to get used to it. That said as mentioned the infrastructure is better for it. Don't get me wrong big supermarkets still exist but they tend to be for larger one off shops rather than typical. However, it's different on where you are, and how remote you are, and your lifestyle too.

 

[ci_newman]

I have to say when I go back to the motherland or fatherland I do love doing the daily shop - i.e. getting bread on a daily basis, and going to the butcher's for a day or two's worth of meat, and the veggies every couple of days. It doesn't actually add a huge amount of effort, but it's just a habit to get used to it. That said as mentioned the infrastructure is better for it. Don't get me wrong big supermarkets still exist but they tend to be for larger one off shops rather than typical. However, it's different on where you are, and how remote you are, and your lifestyle too.

Locally in my town, all of the independent grocers and butcher all close at 4pm. If I want to do any shopping before or after work, it's supermarkets or nothing They aren't open at weekends either...

 

[Rroff]

Locally in my town, all of the independent grocers and butcher all close at 4pm. If I want to do any shopping before or after work, it's supermarkets or nothing They aren't open at weekends either...

Not sure why but the butchers around where I live/work open very early and close very early, they do open Saturdays but reduced hours and closed by 2pm. Can't say I've ever really bothered with the butchers.