Transgender MTF picked for Olympics weightlifting

[arknor]

I have a friend who is gay and is loving life at the moment and he doesn't see any issue at all with any level of imbalance directed in favour of who he considers historically neglected and oppressed groups. If he could he would happily have positive discrimination in all levels of society if you ticked the right box. He would consider it fair and simply pay back. Utterly mad that people who consider themselves to have got the short end of the stick would be so happy to beat completely innocent people with that stick simply because they don't fit in the same box as another group.

It genuinely boggles the mind that people can behave in the exact way that they claim is so abhorrent and not see any irony or issue with that, simply because they are "on the right side".

I think it might have been NZ again that has decided to allow trans women to compete in Rugby (im sure someone will correct me on the country) and I can't wait for the first lawsuit when a woman is horrifically injured by a trans "woman" because we don't have the guts to say no to this madness.

your mate might want reminding they are 5% or less of the population and it wouldn't take a whole lot to make them disliked, they might wanna quit whilst they still have popular support

 

[Moley]

I have a friend who is gay and is loving life at the moment and he doesn't see any issue at all with any level of imbalance directed in favour of who he considers historically neglected and oppressed groups. If he could he would happily have positive discrimination in all levels of society if you ticked the right box. He would consider it fair and simply pay back. Utterly mad that people who consider themselves to have got the short end of the stick would be so happy to beat completely innocent people with that stick simply because they don't fit in the same box as another group.

Your friend is a Tyrant and he doesn't even know it...

 

[Warbie]

Sport isn't sport anymore really.
Society and technology and big money have made it something else. There is no level playing field. I know people have genetic predisposition to sports historically unfair advantage. Like runners from that certain part of Africa etc.
But now we have the tech to analyse hormone levels we can meddle more. 'Fair' becomes harder to achieve because we know more.
Bit like how is so much harder to argue for religion than it was 200 years ago.

The trans argument is a no win situation.

Don't trans them compete
Provide a trans only category
Keep them in thier birth certificate class
Arbitrary chemical level limits.

There is no solution. Just have to accept sport isn't fair.
I kind of hope this person was just trolling.
Because its a hollow victory and everyone will know it.
If it is trolling. Its epic trolling! Because it really gives sport a headache!

I don't care much about Olympics or sport. So just interested where this drama goes.

Can't wait for genetic manipulation to kick in too!

What about doing away with gender distinction in sport and just letting people compete at the level they can? We'd need some care in various contact sports etc. and we'd see some overlap in middle divisions. I think this would get around a few issues - one being the topic at hand and the other the point you raised re. the current state of sport (which I agree with). The main issues I see with this is you wouldn't have high level woman's leagues in various sports anymore. But maybe that wouldn't matter and sport would become more about competing and having fun rather than $$$

 

[arknor]

What about doing away with gender distinction in sport and just letting people compete at the level they can?

When men were men ... and so were the women
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/aug/07/athensolympics2004.olympicgames31

As the judging improved, rule-bending turned into gender-bending. Dora Ratjen, fourth in the women's high jump in Berlin in 1936, was actually a man called Hermann. And Stanislawa Walasiewicz, who won the women's 100m in Los Angeles in 1932, turned out on death to have had "primary male characteristics". Ironically, when Walasiewicz lost her title in Berlin in 1936, a fellow Pole wrongly accused the new champion, Helen Stephens, of being a man.
Rumours that some women were not made entirely of sugar and spice rumbled on through the 1950s. Then came the Ukrainian sisters, Tamara and Irina Press, who won five golds between them in 1960 and 1964, amid whispers that they had been injected with male hormones - or even that they did not need them as they were male to start with.
Compulsory sex-testing was introduced in the mid-1960s -and the Presses stopped. The first athlete to fail a sex test was Poland's Eva Klobukowska, who had won a sprint-relay gold and a 100m bronze in Tokyo in 1964.

any women who do well against trans people are going to be outed as men even if it's not true lol
history repeats

 

[Warbie]

any women who do well against trans people are going to be outed as men even if it's not true lol
history repeats

But who cares if ppl are competing at the level they can. It no longer matters if it's a guy pretending to be a gal or some 6' dude deciding to dentify as a lady and lift weights competitively.

 

[413x]

What about doing away with gender distinction in sport and just letting people compete at the level they can? We'd need some care in various contact sports etc. and we'd see some overlap in middle divisions. I think this would get around a few issues - one being the topic at hand and the other the point you raised re. the current state of sport (which I agree with). The main issues I see with this is you wouldn't have high level woman's leagues in various sports anymore. But maybe that wouldn't matter and sport would become more about competing and having fun rather than $$$

I expect you'd get a ''but it puts women in a lesser category'' statement.
Also I don't know what you'd use to categorise.
Obviously boxing has weights. But I dunno how a woman would do in a weight category same as a man?

 

[BallistixOnZ490]

What about doing away with gender distinction in sport and just letting people compete at the level they can? We'd need some care in various contact sports etc. and we'd see some overlap in middle divisions. I think this would get around a few issues - one being the topic at hand and the other the point you raised re. the current state of sport (which I agree with). The main issues I see with this is you wouldn't have high level woman's leagues in various sports anymore. But maybe that wouldn't matter and sport would become more about competing and having fun rather than $$$

Well, I already mentioned this earlier.

Serena Williams tried to challenge men and lost to an average ranked male tennis player.

Biological women cannot compete with biological men, no matter if they have much more muscle than other women.

 

[413x]

Well, I already mentioned this earlier.

Serena Williams tried to challenge men and lost to an average ranked male tennis player.

Biological women cannot compete with biological men, no matter if they have much more muscle than other women.

Thought this would be the case. Muscle density etc

 

[Housey]

I have a friend who is gay and is loving life at the moment and he doesn't see any issue at all with any level of imbalance directed in favour of who he considers historically neglected and oppressed groups. If he could he would happily have positive discrimination in all levels of society if you ticked the right box. He would consider it fair and simply pay back. Utterly mad that people who consider themselves to have got the short end of the stick would be so happy to beat completely innocent people with that stick simply because they don't fit in the same box as another group.

It genuinely boggles the mind that people can behave in the exact way that they claim is so abhorrent and not see any irony or issue with that, simply because they are "on the right side".

I think it might have been NZ again that has decided to allow trans women to compete in Rugby (im sure someone will correct me on the country) and I can't wait for the first lawsuit when a woman is horrifically injured by a trans "woman" because we don't have the guts to say no to this madness.

And this is really the point here. There is a disproportionate voice for former minorities right now that will, without question, come to bite them on the backside.

Balance and rational debate has been lost of late, but the majority will have their say down the line and sometimes that has a habit of ending badly, which I also hope is not the case. Keep kicking the lion and telling him the bunny rabbits are the real kings and he will keep sleeping until a moment in time.

 

[Nasher]

Well, I already mentioned this earlier.

Serena Williams tried to challenge men and lost to an average ranked male tennis player.

Biological women cannot compete with biological men, no matter if they have much more muscle than other women.

Tennis is more endurance than strength. The womens games are way shorter though. If the guy plays by the female rules it will be easy for them to last until the end. The other way round the women aren't used to playing that long.

 

[Gray2233]

I expect you'd get a ''but it puts women in a lesser category'' statement.
Also I don't know what you'd use to categorise.
Obviously boxing has weights. But I dunno how a woman would do in a weight category same as a man?

https://www.livescience.com/52998-women-combat-gender-differences.html

But in one way, the sex difference is stark: Men are physically stronger than women, on average. A study in the Journal of Applied Physiology found that men had an average of 26 lbs. (12 kilograms) more skeletal muscle mass than women. Women also exhibited about 40 percent less upper-body strength and 33 percent less lower-body strength, on average, the study found.


The researchers found that height and weight differences between men and women could explain only about half of the difference in strength. Researchers reporting in 1993 in the European Journal of Applied Physiology found that men's brawn could also be attributed to a larger cross-section in individual muscle fibers. [5 Myths About Women's Bodies]


And a 2006 study in the same journal revealed that men had much stronger grips than women — the difference was so big that 90 percent of the women scored lower than 95 percent of the men. The team also looked at highly trained female athletes who excelled at sports requiring a strong grip, such as judo or handball. Though these women did have a stronger grip compared with other women, they still performed worse than 75 percent of the men on this task.


In general, men are also faster than women. The fastest woman in the world, Florence Griffith Joyner, ran the 100-meter dash in just 10.49 seconds in 1988, and that record remains unbroken. Yet her fastest time wouldn't have even qualified her for the men's 2016 Olympic competition, which requires competitors to finish the 100-meter sprint in 10.16 seconds or less.


However, women may have an edge in some physical tasks. Because women usually have more body fat and may be better at burning fat as energy early on in exertion, they could have better endurance than men, according to a 2001 study in the American Journal of Physiology, Endocrinology and Metabolism. Men have more muscle mass and greater levels of circulating testosterone, on average, which also means they use more energy than women do. And men's muscles tend to fatigue more easily than women's, possibly because women recruit muscle groups to share the load more efficiently, according to a 2003 study in the Journal of Applied Physiology.

There's always going to be outliers, but in most cases biological males are going to have a large advantage regardless of weight class.

 

[Warbie]

I expect you'd get a ''but it puts women in a lesser category'' statement.

That's the main issue for me. Not much to aspire to if the best female tennis player in the world is in the third division (or whatever they do in tennis). With boxing there'd need to be some care and not just lumping ppl in by weight. The middle tiers of sport would essentially be where we start to get overlap between men and women.

 

[The Running Man]

That's the main issue for me. Not much to aspire to if the best female tennis player in the world is in the third division (or whatever they do in tennis). With boxing there'd need to be some care and not just lumping ppl in by weight. The middle tiers of sport would essentially be where we start to get overlap between men and women.

Testosterone categories.

 

[Fubsy]

I can just see it now, a breakaway European Super Testosterone League.

 

[Warbie]

Testosterone categories.

Maybe. Seems a bit clinical tho! Might have same issues with high T level divisions basically being the premier leagues.

 

[The Running Man]

Maybe. Seems a bit clinical tho! Might have same issues with high T level divisions basically being the premier leagues.

Yup run by Jamaicans

 

[dowie]

The trans argument is a no win situation.

Don't trans them compete
Provide a trans only category
Keep them in thier birth certificate class
Arbitrary chemical level limits.

There is no solution. Just have to accept sport isn't fair.

You've just given some solutions though!

Having them compete in their own category would be an obvious one - stick them in the Paralympics where we have multiple categories for different types of disability etc... could even have MTF with high T and MTF with low T categories there.

Or indeed, just let them compete in the men's events in the regular olympics if they can meet the grade.

 

[StriderX]

Calling it a disability is a tad insensitive.

 

[Nasher]

A man with no penis is a disability.

 

[fez]

You've just given some solutions though!

Having them compete in their own category would be an obvious one - stick them in the Paralympics where we have multiple categories for different types of disability etc... could even have MTF with high T and MTF with low T categories there.

Or indeed, just let them compete in the men's events in the regular olympics if they can meet the grade.

You're trying to come at this from a point of logic and there is very little in this space. This is part of the problem. JK Rowling got in trouble for having the audacity to differentiate between biological women and trans women. There is a small but very vocal and powerful minority of people who would take the idea that trans athletes should compete separately from their "chosen" gender as a form of discrimination and obviously a hate crime of some sort.

I'm quite surprised how many people in this thread don't understand just how big a difference there is between mens and womens sports. Literally every sport. It isn't even close either in most cases.

Anything that involves speed, power, strength and coordination will be dominated by men.

Men are almost 1s faster in the 100m than women.

The greatest womens tennis players in Serena/Venus Williams wouldn't even get into the mens top 200 at their peak. The mens game is played at a higher pace for 5 sets vs the womens at 3.

The best womens football teams are smashed by 16 year olds boys teams.

These are just a few examples. Even the endurance argument doesn't hold a lot of weight when you look at endurance based sports. All the top records are men.

Its just a fact that biology plays a massive role in sporting prowess. The best genetically endowed humans are the top athletes and the best endowed humans are men when it comes to physicality.