Transgender MTF picked for Olympics weightlifting

Mason- said:
No you can’t have feminine men or masculine women. They’re paradoxical. Everything that you deem feminine or masculine outside of biology is man made and socio-cultural. All you have to do is look in different peoples throughout the world to see that what is deemed masculine or feminine changes based on culture. What doesn’t change is biology. So if you think being a ‘woman’ is wearing a skirt and make up and naming yourself after a flower. Then you’re a fool.

Transgender ‘women’ are trying to be what society thinks women ought to be. But they will never be what women are.

Because the ‘ought’ is arbitrary and the ‘is’ is immutable.
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Hmm I think I dropped the ‘terminology ball’ here because what I meant to say is ‘feminine males’ and ‘masculine females’.

I’ve edited my post so that it now makes more sense.
 
Sport isn't sport anymore really.
Society and technology and big money have made it something else. There is no level playing field. I know people have genetic predisposition to sports historically unfair advantage. Like runners from that certain part of Africa etc.
But now we have the tech to analyse hormone levels we can meddle more. 'Fair' becomes harder to achieve because we know more.
Bit like how is so much harder to argue for religion than it was 200 years ago.

The trans argument is a no win situation.

Don't trans them compete
Provide a trans only category
Keep them in thier birth certificate class
Arbitrary chemical level limits.

There is no solution. Just have to accept sport isn't fair.
I kind of hope this person was just trolling.
Because its a hollow victory and everyone will know it.
If it is trolling. Its epic trolling! Because it really gives sport a headache!

I don't care much about Olympics or sport. So just interested where this drama goes.

Can't wait for genetic manipulation to kick in too!
 
Nitefly said:
To be masculine is to have attributes that are typically male and the be feminine is to have attributes that are typically female.

If you can have masculine women and feminine men, which I presume you agree with, then it logically follows that being masculine and feminine is not strictly linked with being biologically male or female. They are characteristics. Likewise, gender is the allocation of one’s self to a set of characteristics.

Discussions around gender typically involve a person feeling more inherently associated with one set of characteristics than another. If anyone wants to do that…. So what? It has no bearing on me whatsoever and if they are someone who does then go on to exhibit characteristics of their chosen gender then in some ways it makes more sense than insisting on calling them the gender typically associated with their biological sex.

In my mind and conscious, I know clear as day that I am a man. I don’t really think I have the right to deny a female calling him/her-self a man if that is likewise what she thinks and feels to be appropriate for her.

There seems to be much agony in the world caused by strict adherence to ideas. Better to be flexible where we can, I think.
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A very simplistic view that ignores (perhaps unintentionally) the fact there are consequences for allowing trans people to compete in women's sport - that biological XX women are disadvantaged. There is one fact that can't be argued and that is the annals of history show men's records for sports are typically better than that of their female peers.
For example, high jump records are .c 16% higher for professional male athletes vs professional female athletes (based on OWR).

Like you I also wouldn't deny a man identifying as a woman, but I would never support their demands to compete as a woman because to do so is to not support the rights of women to have women's sport. There is a reason why we have male and female classifications.
This woman does not need to complete in weight lifting to be recongised as a woman, they will argue that isn't the case and to deny them is to be transphobic.

It's an impossible situation (to support both sides) because trans athletes will label anyone against trans inclusion in women's sport is transphobic, and women will argue those that allow biological men to compete as women are misogynistic.
 
BallistixOnZ490 said:
I already would be doing, but you can't get it without prescription.
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If your levels are low the NHS will do it - a lot of clinics will investigate it and prescribe it for you. It's not for me, as my levels are fine (I get my bloodwork done every 6 months) but a few friends in their late 40s have started doing it.
 
Mekrel said:
A very simplistic view that ignores (perhaps unintentionally) the fact there are consequences for allowing trans people to compete in women's sport - that biological XX women are disadvantaged. There is one fact that can't be argued and that is the annals of history show men's records for sports are typically better than that of their female peers.
For example, high jump records are .c 16% higher for professional male athletes vs professional female athletes (based on OWR).

Like you I also wouldn't deny a man identifying as a woman, but I would never support their demands to compete as a woman because to do so is to not support the rights of women to have women's sport. There is a reason why we have male and female classifications.
This woman does not need to complete in weight lifting to be recongised as a woman, they will argue that isn't the case and to deny them is to be transphobic.

It's an impossible situation (to support both sides) because trans athletes will label anyone against trans inclusion in women's sport is transphobic, and women will argue those that allow biological men to compete as women are misogynistic.
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If you read the read of my posts you’ll see that I oppose the trans person competing against other females.
 
Freefaller said:
If your levels are low the NHS will do it - a lot of clinics will investigate it and prescribe it for you. It's not for me, as my levels are fine (I get my bloodwork done every 6 months) but a few friends in their late 40s have started doing it.
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You're talking to a wall, the guy seems more interested in everyone knowing he's ill with such and such a thing, that he may or may not have, and all the problems entailed rather than actually seriously fixing anything. It's always someone elses job.
 
Parsley said:
You're talking to a wall, the guy seems more interested in everyone knowing he's ill with such and such a thing, that he may or may not have, and all the problems entailed rather than actually seriously fixing anything. It's always someone elses job.
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Ah fair enough - thought I'd try and help :)
 
Nitefly said:
Hmm I think I dropped the ‘terminology ball’ here because what I meant to say is ‘feminine males’ and ‘masculine females’.

I’ve edited my post so that it now makes more sense.
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I also edited mine to address your point on being ‘flexible’.

Whether you say males or men is indifferent to me they are synonymous.
 
Parsley said:
You're talking to a wall, the guy seems more interested in everyone knowing he's ill with such and such a thing, that he may or may not have, and all the problems entailed rather than actually seriously fixing anything. It's always someone elses job.
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Erm yes it would always be the doctor's job to test for such things, or am I missing something here?

A) 'DOCTORS DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING FOR YOU!'

B) 'GO SEE A DOCTOR!!!!'.

Also any time I do have a doctor's appointment I get shouted at for talking about any more than one issue at a time.
 
Mason- said:
I also edited mine to address your point on being ‘flexible’.

Whether you say males or men is indifferent to me they are synonymous.
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Thanks for the heads-up.

I think the crux of our ‘disagreement’ is as follows:

You think that masculine words like ‘men’, ‘man’ and ‘he’ belong exclusively to biological males (or put another way, that biological males are always men).

I think (and agree) that biological males are a discrete category in their own right, separate from biological females, but I am not concerned with biological females choosing to use those words or purporting to belong to any group that is associated with them (save that such biological females cannot be biological males).

Really then it’s a problem that derives from the use of language than anything else, because if we removed the idea of gender altogether, it’s entirely inconsequential and we actually have no disagreement at all.

I think that’s why I learn towards being flexible. If it really is just an issue of language, then it’s not something in my mind that is ‘rigidly fixed’ and I don’t see much merit in being prescriptive. I view it the other way too: the phrases men and women have an everyday use that makes sense and should be retained without overzealous criticism.

edit - added the final paragraph, soz
 
Nitefly said:
Thanks for the heads-up.

I think the crux of our ‘disagreement’ is as follows:

You think that masculine words like ‘men’, ‘man’ and ‘he’ belong exclusively to biological males (or put another way, that biological males are always men).

I think (and agree) that biological males are a discrete category in their own right, separate from biological females, but I am not concerned with biological females choosing to use those words or purporting to belong to any group that is associated with them (save that such biological females cannot be biological males).

Really then it’s a problem that derives from the use of language than anything else, because if we removed the idea of gender altogether, it’s entirely inconsequential and we actually have no disagreement at all.
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The original argument aside I’m not really bothered about the gendering of language either. My main gripe isn’t even that they believe they’re something they’re not. It’s that these people are so insecure that they require the validation of others also believing they’re something they’re not. I won’t do it. To use your terminology so we’re crystal clear. If you are a male and you believe you are female and need to physically mutilate your perfectly healthy male body then you are mentally ill. And I won’t play into your delusion.

If you want to wear stereotypically feminine things or change your name to a stereotypical feminine name I don’t mind. They’re arbitrarily feminine. However I will not tell you that you are a female or a woman because you’re not. Like I said above you’re just a man who doesn’t care for social norms.

On the argument of gendered language though. I would prefer they were associated with biology. It makes sense for them to be. She for women, even if they change their name to Dave. It also has a raft of usefulness from a medical point of view.
 
As Monty Python once said....


We will look back and ask ourselves why we felt this was a good idea whilst shaking our heads in amusement in generations to come IMHO.
 
Housey said:
As Monty Python once said....


We will look back and ask ourselves why we felt this was a good idea whilst shaking our heads in amusement in generations to come IMHO.
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The sad thing is lots of people think it’s not a good idea. They’re just ignored or labelled a ‘phobe.
 
Mason- said:
The sad thing is lots of people think it’s not a good idea. They’re just ignored or labelled a ‘phobe.
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I actually think it’s very few people who label, but they are very vociferous and empowered right now and that will change in time I think. Strange world right now.
 
Mason- said:
The sad thing is lots of people think it’s not a good idea. They’re just ignored or labelled a ‘phobe.
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I'm going to say that most if not all people with knowledge on this issue are opposed to mixed 'biological sex' sports, and they have been for all of the time.

All the current woke / politically correct stuff however has gained too much traction, and society is catering to listening to and taking a tiny vocal minority seriously on such issues and giving in to any of their demands.

Its similar to how doctors aren't allowed to call patients obese anymore in case they get sued for hate speech.
 
Housey said:
I actually think it’s very few people who label, but they are very vociferous and empowered right now and that will change in time I think. Strange world right now.
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I have a friend who is gay and is loving life at the moment and he doesn't see any issue at all with any level of imbalance directed in favour of who he considers historically neglected and oppressed groups. If he could he would happily have positive discrimination in all levels of society if you ticked the right box. He would consider it fair and simply pay back. Utterly mad that people who consider themselves to have got the short end of the stick would be so happy to beat completely innocent people with that stick simply because they don't fit in the same box as another group.

It genuinely boggles the mind that people can behave in the exact way that they claim is so abhorrent and not see any irony or issue with that, simply because they are "on the right side".

I think it might have been NZ again that has decided to allow trans women to compete in Rugby (im sure someone will correct me on the country) and I can't wait for the first lawsuit when a woman is horrifically injured by a trans "woman" because we don't have the guts to say no to this madness.
 
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