Uber to lose licence to operate in London

[Werewolf]

That is absolutely disgraceful - you should have reported him / her.

As a matter of interest, how does one know who is actually driving a black cab? Do you get texted a photograph in advance?


One has to wonder - why don't you just hail a black cab instead; why do you bother with Uber

IIRC with black cabs they have to display the licence in about 3 places on the vehicle and the driver has to display a physical ID badge with his name/photo/number etc on it (which I think is meant to match the vehicle's displayed one), and at a guess will have the same sort of physical security/anti tamper features as the driving licence (a blue badge these days has a bunch of anti tamper/certification features so I can't imagine a black cab ID being less secure).

TFL also have a page on their site to verify licensed london cab and private hire drivers.

Oddly enough I'm slightly more reassured by a physical ID issued by a trusted authority who have to do checks, than something shown on a phone app that is run by a company that has typically seen the idea of devoting resources to statutory duties as onerous and only worth paying lip service to., preferring to spend money after the fact to try and argue that they didn't need to do those checks properly.

IIRC the police in London working with TFL do fairly regular random checks of black cabs, especially if there have been any complaints about fake ones.

I actually like the idea of Uber and similar apps, the problem I've had with Uber from the word go is that their attitude to public safety and privacy has been at best, awful.
They've repeatedly shown a preference for going after people that point out their failings than addressing their failings, treating the data of users (especially high profile ones in the early days) as entertainment, and treating the law as a nothing because they are "disruptive technology" until the legal authorities start to actively go after them in full force to make them stick to the same requirements as everyone else (and if they want things changed, to do so through the proper route rather than trying to use loopholes).

 

[Seearbe]

IIRC with black cabs they have to display the licence in about 3 places on the vehicle and the driver has to display a physical ID badge with his name/photo/number etc on it (which I think is meant to match the vehicle's displayed one), and at a guess will have the same sort of physical security/anti tamper features as the driving licence (a blue badge these days has a bunch of anti tamper/certification features so I can't imagine a black cab ID being less secure).

TFL also have a page on their site to verify licensed london cab and private hire drivers.

Oddly enough I'm slightly more reassured by a physical ID issued by a trusted authority who have to do checks, than something shown on a phone app that is run by a company that has typically seen the idea of devoting resources to statutory duties as onerous and only worth paying lip service to., preferring to spend money after the fact to try and argue that they didn't need to do those checks properly.

IIRC the police in London working with TFL do fairly regular random checks of black cabs, especially if there have been any complaints about fake ones.

I actually like the idea of Uber and similar apps, the problem I've had with Uber from the word go is that their attitude to public safety and privacy has been at best, awful.
They've repeatedly shown a preference for going after people that point out their failings than addressing their failings, treating the data of users (especially high profile ones in the early days) as entertainment, and treating the law as a nothing because they are "disruptive technology" until the legal authorities start to actively go after them in full force to make them stick to the same requirements as everyone else (and if they want things changed, to do so through the proper route rather than trying to use loopholes).

Comments on Uber are spot on as far as I'm concerned.

On the black cabs, the whole ID thing just isn't as convenient as it is with Uber (assuming Uber are doing the proper checks on their end etc). It's so much easier to check a number plate and picture that has been sent to you in advance than try and find a tiny credit-card sized ID card somewhere in the cab. But most importantly, the Uber ID can be checked before getting in the car. I wouldn't fancy telling a black cab driver to stop so I can get out because I didn't think his ID matched up!

 

[Jean-F]

That's exactly the point. This isn't something that should be allowed to happen but you have the ability to check before you move anywhere and you can report it. There is literally no reasonable way that you can verify any information about black cab drivers or minicab firms. And that's exactly why Worboys was able to get away with things for so long.

I for one would not want my wife getting in a black cab home late at night over an Uber.

That’s your prerogative, my wife, although rarely out late without me, all my nieces, sisters-in-law etc, wouldn’t use anything other than a Black Cab to get home late at night, but FWIW they’re all streetwise, inner London women who know what’s safe, and what might not be.

Can't say his post reflects my experience - albeit I only lived there for 4 years - there was a few parts like certain areas near Sidcup they weren't exactly rushing to take someone but there was never any problems going south of the river I experienced as a general thing.

Thanks Rroff, another satisfied customer.

Agree. I've stood around for ages late at night for a cab to take me home and nobody would. It's what actually drove me to install uber whilst standing at the side of a road. Few clicks and I've got someone to drive to drive to exactly where I am, take me on the 80 min drive home, with full auditability of the journey, in a nicer car and at a fraction of the cost. Hmm.

And again, another satisfied Uber customer, we’re all winning today.
To paraphrase the Declaration of Independence, all men are endowed with unalienable rights, one of which is to freely choose which mode of public transportation one prefers.

That is absolutely disgraceful - you should have reported him / her.

As a matter of interest, how does one know who is actually driving a black cab? Do you get texted a photograph in advance?

No you don’t, but if he has that green badge around his neck, or on the breast of his shirt, then you can be assured that he didn’t get it from a Christmas cracker.
You can of course ask to see his TFL licence, he won’t be happy, but he’ll probably reluctantly do it.

You are entirely entitled to your "view" . . . which is universally applicable and should be 100% accepted by everyone . . . you were a "Black Cab Guru" for 30 years

You may be damning me with faint praise stockhausen, but you’re doing it well, so I’ll thank you.
As I understand it, a guru is a teacher, I was good, I can’t deny that, but good enough to be a teacher? Mmm, shakes head, was I?
Anyway, it’s my birthday today, joyeux anniversaire Jean-François, at 80 I’m mellowing, so I’ll apologise for saying that you were talking out of your anus yesterday.

Black cabs are only around central London, won't see any in residential areas outside of Zone 2, no hailing anything around here.

Not strictly true, but certainly very, very thin on the ground, the odd brave soul who’d broke ranks, and schlepped out to Denmark Hill and was making his way back to the Golden Mile maybe, but you’d almost certainly get a response from a radio circuit cab, downside being that he’d legally turn up, with £2.80-£3.00 already on the clock.

 

[Rids]

I have no wish to start WW3 with you, but you’re talking out of your anus, I drove a Black Cab for just shy of 30 years, and I didn’t care where I went, north, south, east or west, providing that the punter had the dough, I’d take them anywhere, anytime.
Granted, I wasn’t over keen on schlepping out to Watford or Potters Bar, but I’d do it, but I’d bite their hands off if they wanted Sevenoaks, Chatham, or Dartford, even Southend or Canvey Island.
I think that it was an American comic who once said, “Never argue with an idiot, he’ll bring you down to his level, and beat you with experience”, I guess he was thinking of people like you.
Try to understand what I’m saying, I couldn’t give a toss if Black Cabs disappeared, and you all used nothing but Uber, it won’t affect me, I’m out, and I came out well in front.

I've never had issues going south of the river, but I regularly had problems trying to get a cab to go from Liverpool Street to Plaistow on a Friday night.

Then when I moved out to Essex the only hope of getting a cab to go out that way was to find one of the drivers sitting outside Fenchurch Street with his light off waiting for a job that would take him back home.

I'm a huge supporter of black cabs, half my family are or have been black cab drivers, but I think its a stretch to say that a black cab will be willing to take you anywhere, anytime, and in a lot of peoples experience that isn't the case.

 

[VincentHanna]

When I used to go out in London about 10-15 years ago there would be plenty of dodgy as **** unlicensed cabs waiting to give you a lift outside a popular venue. Not that I ever used one, but some very drunk person that wants to get home might not be thinking straight.

Uber's have got to be safer than those!

 

[Werewolf]

When I used to go out in London about 10-15 years ago there would be plenty of dodgy as **** unlicensed cabs waiting to give you a lift outside a popular venue. Not that I ever used one, but some very drunk person that wants to get home might not be thinking straight.

Uber's have got to be safer than those!

That's a really low bar....

"Uber has to be safer than getting into a completely random car"

Uber tried to sell itself as a safe and easy to use service, and ignored the pretty much all the bits about safety until they got got caught, repeatedly.

From what I understand part of the reason TFL are refusing their licence at the moment is that Uber's software allowed drivers to update their photo's with zero checks, so it was easy for people to change the photo to someone who was not the person who had been checked (if any checks had been done), meaning the whole idea of users being able to check the driver was legitimate was utterly and completely worthless, and at best you were getting into a vehicle with an uninsured driver, or worse you were getting into a vehicle with someone who was not licensed to drive anything and had a serious criminal record that would have stopped them ever being considered for approval TFL or any other similar authority.

 

[Kenai]

Do Ubers in London not need to get a private hire licence? Comments above referring to physical id from trusted authorities etc. vs a picture on your phone - Ubers have these in Southampton for example (though the old school taxi firms have kicked off because Uber drivers are operating in Southampton but with cheaper licences from the next door New Forest Council)

They're effectively the same as any other taxi but you book via the app rather than calling a dispatch office and you pay via the app rather than in cash. And it's about half the price.

 

[Seearbe]

To paraphrase the Declaration of Independence, all men are endowed with unalienable rights, one of which is to freely choose which mode of public transportation one prefers.

Except I can't because TFL are banning Uber. So I'm back to black cabs which very rarely provide what I need. Or minicabs, which are frankly just a liability.

 

[Len Dananey]

I have to be honest I have just seen this thread and I have never even seen an Uber cab, I live in the North West though but I bet they are here too? But yeah I have never seen an Uber cab.

 

[jpaul]

Seems you cant actually see the evidence that tfl presented to uber .. leastways an earlier foi request was denied ...
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/uber_decision

However, the requested information is exempt from disclosure under
s31(1)(c) of the FOI Act which applies where disclosure would, or would be
likely to, prejudice the administration of justice

Do the same driver identity issues not exist in other countries ? Uber just sound delinquent.

 

[Scam]

You’d like to know the stats for Black Cabs, you’re betting it’s way more than 14,000 illegal trips?
Do you have a pet unicorn in your back yard by any chance.
As for his licence being real, expired, or him being a rapist, you’re wasted here, you could be writing fairy stories with your imagination.

Beyond a flimsy bit of plastic with a dodgy picture on, how am I to know the driver of the cab is who he says he is? Or that his licence is still valid etc. Getting into any car that is not yours, or a friend's, carries with it some risk. I'd prefer to get into a car where I am tracked by GPS, have the relevant driver's info (and reg number) sent to my phone, automatically tells my loved ones what trip I'm on (trackable live), charges my credit card so I don't need to carry cash, oh and that's without standing outside in the p***-pouring rain trying to flag him down.

Your flaming pitchfork can relax in the shed, Uber will buy their way back into the game, don’t fret.

That's exactly what I said. I'm not worried.

You’d rather a loved one was in an Uber?

Always. See above.

2) You forgot Frank Welton, Black Cab driver wrongly convicted of rape in 1992, hung himself in jail, that’s two in the past thirty odd years, in 2014-2015, fifteen Uber drivers were convicted of sexual offences in London. It’s not a competition, but if it was, Uber are winning.

The police believed John Worboys probably had more than 100 victims over a 13 year period. That doesn't seem awfully 'safe' in comparison to me..

I drove a Black Cab for just shy of 30 years

Gosh, really. You definitely can't tell from your posts For what it's worth I'd imagine most people should be comparing Uber to the existing private minicab experience. I'm sure black cabs are relatively safe in comparison to the 3 guys with the cupboard office outside a train station.. But black cab drivers seem to have made it their mission to pick a fight with Uber. And all that is doing is ****ing off people that want to use Uber and to be frank, couldn't give a toss about black cabs.

IIRC with black cabs they have to display the licence in about 3 places on the vehicle and the driver has to display a physical ID badge with his name/photo/number etc on it (which I think is meant to match the vehicle's displayed one), and at a guess will have the same sort of physical security/anti tamper features as the driving licence (a blue badge these days has a bunch of anti tamper/certification features so I can't imagine a black cab ID being less secure).

Do you know what a legit black cab licence looks like? Because I do not, and a straw poll in my office suggests no-one really does. I'd rather put the onus on a company like Uber to check their drivers rather than the individual like me, who has little idea of the law, requirements or what the damn thing looks like.

Do Ubers in London not need to get a private hire licence?

I believe so; https://www.uber.com/gb/en/drive/requirements/

I have to be honest I have just seen this thread and I have never even seen an Uber cab, I live in the North West though but I bet they are here too? But yeah I have never seen an Uber cab.

If it's a Prius, it's probably an Uber Uber's come in all forms, you can use any car newer than 2008. Most drivers have an A4-sized Uber logo on their dashboard so you can see it when it pulls up.

 

[Seearbe]

If it's a Prius, it's probably an Uber Uber's come in all forms, you can use any car newer than 2008. Most drivers have an A4-sized Uber logo on their dashboard so you can see it when it pulls up.

In London, it seems the choice is either a Prius or a Mercedes E Class. A friend of mine had a Porsche Cayenne not long ago - something to do with Porsche deciding it was a good advertising ploy in central London as people get in the car, decide they like it and go and buy one (just like that, hey). Uber in the US is fun as pretty much anything can turn up, although still a lot of Priuses (per perhaps its priui?)

 

[jpaul]

have the relevant driver's info (and reg number) sent to my phone

but, although the registration matches, you are not able to confirm the drivers identity/photo ? unless there is some additional proof you can demand eg show me your driving license. ?

edit : you demand to see this ?

 

[Scam]

In London, it seems the choice is either a Prius or a Mercedes E Class. A friend of mine had a Porsche Cayenne not long ago - something to do with Porsche deciding it was a good advertising ploy in central London as people get in the car, decide they like it and go and buy one (just like that, hey). Uber in the US is fun as pretty much anything can turn up, although still a lot of Priuses (per perhaps its priui?)

Uber in LA is fun. I once got into a real ****heap of a car. The guy had rigged up a ghetto tablet system with wires everywhere etc, playing clearly-ripped movies for you I actually gave him a big tip because he was really chirpy and chatty, and just seemed really happy and was clearly trying hard.

but, although the registration matches, you are not able to confirm the drivers identity/photo ? unless there is some additional proof you can demand eg show me your driving license. ?

edit : you demand to see this ?

Sure, you can do all that... My point is that it's no different for a dodgy minicab driver to have a homemade/dodgy licence (would you really know?), than it is for the Uber drivers to manage to register fraudulently. Obviously Uber has a responsibility, and they've been pulled up on it. What I can't stand is black cab zealots like Jean-F insisting Uber is so dangerous, and other cabs are so much safer. Because they're patently not; both options are open to fraud.

 

[Jean-F]

I've never had issues going south of the river, but I regularly had problems trying to get a cab to go from Liverpool Street to Plaistow on a Friday night.

Then when I moved out to Essex the only hope of getting a cab to go out that way was to find one of the drivers sitting outside Fenchurch Street with his light off waiting for a job that would take him back home.

I'm a huge supporter of black cabs, half my family are or have been black cab drivers, but I think its a stretch to say that a black cab will be willing to take you anywhere, anytime, and in a lot of peoples experience that isn't the case.

When I used to go out in London about 10-15 years ago there would be plenty of dodgy as **** unlicensed cabs waiting to give you a lift outside a popular venue. Not that I ever used one, but some very drunk person that wants to get home might not be thinking straight.

Uber's have got to be safer than those!

Fair enough Rids, I was specifically referring to myself with the go anywhere, anytime, remark.
I reiterate, I wasn’t super cab driver, or Mr. Altruistic, the way I saw it, if anyone had the dough, I’d take them wherever they wanted to go, that way lay the path to the money.

No argument with your last line VH, it was always a mystery to me that they were allowed to get away with doing that, night after night after night.
I concluded that plod turned a blind eye because (a), they just wanted the drunks gone, and couldn’t give a toss how they went, as long as they went, OR (b), the touts were giving plod a “bung”, more likely the first scenario I thought.

Except I can't because TFL are banning Uber. So I'm back to black cabs which very rarely provide what I need. Or minicabs, which are frankly just a liability.

Can’t see them disappearing completely, highly unlikely, TFL would lose a regular income in licensing fees, plus a bunch of brown envelopes will allegedly be flying around the Palestra building on Blackfriars Road, in an effort to grease the wheels as it were.

What I can't stand is black cab zealots like Jean-F insisting Uber is so dangerous, and other cabs are so much safer. Because they're patently not; both options are open to fraud.

I’m hardly a Black Cab zealot, I’ve stressed again and again, that it wouldn’t bother me if Black Cabs faded out, and there was nothing but Uber, I NO LONGER DRIVE A BLACK CAB, and I certainly haven’t insisted that Uber are dangerous, but Black Cabs are definitely a safer option for a lone woman at the moment, IMO.
You say that both options are open to fraud, so presumably you mean that both a PH driver licence, and a Black Cab licence can be crudely copied, I won’t argue with that, anything is possible I guess, but ask your suspected pseudo Black Cab driver to take you from Chalk Farm station to Roland Gardens SW7, without using a Sat-Nav, then you’ll see if it’s possible to emulate a real Black Cab driver.

 

[dowie]

Uber in the US is fun as pretty much anything can turn up, although still a lot of Priuses (per perhaps its priui?)

 

[SpeedFreak]

In the nicest way, a black cab driver doing a 3 day week while building a retirement fund isn't making the strongest of cases for black cabs and their relatively high pricing. I'm not saying being a driver is unskilled, but modern technology has changed the game and it necessitates less knowledge and therefore us a lower barrier to entry than was once the case.

 

[explicit4u]

A couple of months ago I jumped in an Uber and the profile on my phone was showing a female driver, but when I got in it was a male! To say I was surprised/shocked was an understatement as I wasn't sure I got into the right car although the registration was the same. Turns out the driver's wife is the one registered to drive, but she wanted to have a lie in that morning so her husband decided to do a few rounds instead... He was very apologetic and seemed genuine so I just went along with it as I had to get to work, but there is just so much wrong with what they are doing for obvious reasons.

100% a lie, I know a few Uber eats drivers who do this. Same goes for the ones that register as bicycles, but turn up in cars to reduce the fees. Super shady company but it’s hard to avoid them with their price and service.

for those complaining about having to use black cabs there’s alternative apps like Bolt and Kapten that offer the same service at a similar price point.

 

[Nasher]

Can’t see them disappearing completely, highly unlikely, TFL would lose a regular income in licensing fees, plus a bunch of brown envelopes will allegedly be flying around the Palestra building on Blackfriars Road, in an effort to grease the wheels as it were.

They have in some other cities around the world where they also lost their licence. TFL won't let it slide because it sets a bad example.

Black cabs are controlled by TFL and they hold any dodgy drivers to account personally. Uber as a company has been told quite a few times to sort themselves out. They were given a 15 month extention to fix things and still didn't. Hopefully being booted out of a major capital city will convince them to change.

 

[stockhausen]

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