UEFA Champions & Europa League Football Thread ** spoilers ** [3rd - 5th October 2023]

I sometimes wonder if our fans even watch our games. Mount was excellent tonight, in what world does he look terrible?

And your squad depth comment is just ridiculous. We literally have four players that can play left back in the senior squad. We are currently in the position where 3 are injured and the other has to play rb because our other rb is injured. What squad depth helps with that problem?

I honestly love the internet. You would never ever in your life expect too see views like Mount was excellent and Onana has done nothing wrong.

Incredible. You both sound like a manager defending a player or a mother/father.

Just adds to the list of issues at Utd.

If ETH has similar views then it’s genuinely concerning and he’s finished. This job isn’t for him. As I said previously those two are his signings for a lot of money, so maybe he has to stick to his guns.

It’s like when klopp defended karius, he knew he wasn’t good enough and went out and got a new keeper - he would have dropped him if there wasn’t a transfer window. Pep done a similar thing with Bravo. Heck even Arteta put the spanner in the works with the keepers at Arsenal - it’s now not even an issue.

PSG aren’t all that good and have started the season relatively poorly.

Can easily see you coming away with something at home.

It’s their poorest start in the oil era.
 
A brain dump after that ****show and a sleep...

I find it interesting that people appear to hyper focus on the new signings, to pick at them, rather than afford them time

Onana - had a terrible game, he went down early on the chip. the pass before the penalty... His fumble before the second goal was awful too. However his first couple of games were safe and secure when he had a more reliable back line. Does this excuse his flaws, no, but i'm not going to witch hunt after 3 bad games with a terrible makeshift defense and midfield in front. Just like I didn't go after DDG when the witch hunt started in his first few games. Dear god I recall the media and this forum when he was fumbling crosses and passes.. 'he's a light weight, stick thin, scared' etc... DDG remained flawed but he adapted his game and became a solid keeper and remained a good shot stopper due to his agile foot positioning.
Mount - I thought he was ineffective in his first couple of games, last night I saw someone working across the pitch and creating space playing insightful passes. Did they create direct chances, not from what I recall, but the contribution was there more than most and personally I'd be starting him over Bruno if this was classic FM and I wasn't dealing with egos and real life knock on effects around the club.

For me, why isn't more or anyone really...pointing to the 'experienced' squad members for their absolute ineptness and contributions to the performance? Because it's not funny? Because it's all been said? Are we then disregarding it, when it's a massive piece of context that comes down to the contributions of 11 (and problems that were there last year), not 2...

Bruno - I don't mind that he tries an fails at ambitious passes, however you can see when his selfishness kick in, blazing snap shots being impatient, screamed at his own teammates in the aftermath, and once booted the ball at the fans out of frustration. He's the captain
Dalot - Average at best, always has been, always will be. I don't doubt he cares and I don't doubt his work rate but he's below average for a team looking to compete.
Lindelof - Let's be honest, he isn't great but he's better than Maguire.
Casemiro - You can see he's frustrated having to cover roles in the middle. He shouldn't be on his own yet due to injuries he is. He's stretched and it's showing badly as it would for any player completely exposed. was a world of difference when he had support from Hannibal in the first half. Not ideal but was still more combative support to work with him.
Rashford - never will have a footballing brain. He's instinctive at best and unfortunately completely lazy because he's too busy in his own head. 350k a week... jesus christ...
Varane - Just looks exposed amongst this team and finds himself having to stretch his legs all too often. Tried to find a risky pass out at times which often went wrong - but appreciated the efforts try to make quick transitions which I imagine would work in a more stable and predictable team.
----
Hojlund - absolutely brilliant for his experience and time at the club, he's ultimately raw, he will be overcome by more experienced defenders, but he can grow (literally) to be a bit of a beast if his promise maintains the trajectory. Was well impressed given how young. And of course he's not a Haaland, but nobody is and it's unfair to use that as a barometer. Excited to see how he can come on over the years, and I pray to god he stays fit because the club/fans are going to begin to lean on him.
Amrabat - Can't wait to see him in the centre with Casemiro... Will he be a world beater, unlikely, but he's a work horse and he'll free Casemiro to go forward where he was at his best last season.
Hannibal - Raw energetic potential - It's hard to see where he fits in - appears to be a bit of a machine in the middle to disrupt and get possession back and then provide forward reinforcement. I quite like it, but he's also worryingly rash - said during the match, just before half time he made another two rash lunges in quick succession. Which could easily have turned the tie into a nightmare - which it did in the end anyways...

ETH - Has to take some responsibility for how we've ended up with a centre that is so fragile and exposed too - I never rated McTominay or Fred to go up against proper opposition, but he's sold one and the other looks completely shot of being a player from being dropped by ETH... i think he's made a poor judgement here and left us very light in an area that is showing a lot of class across most teams now. He's also holding onto egos who are not performing, we can make assumptions why that is which i've posted about plenty before. At the moment he's hamstrung by injuries but at the very minimum I think Bruno and Rashford should be dropped. Bringing in midfield of Casemiro, Hannibal, Mount (like we had first half) and Antony / Hojlund and Garnacho as the forward three.

Some words for what it's worth amongst the bashing
 
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I honestly love the internet. You would never ever in your life expect too see views like Mount was excellent and Onana has done nothing wrong.

Incredible. You both sound like a manager defending a player or a mother/father.

Just adds to the list of issues at Utd.

If ETH has similar views then it’s genuinely concerning and he’s finished. This job isn’t for him. As I said previously those two are his signings for a lot of money, so maybe he has to stick to his guns.

It’s like when klopp defended karius, he knew he wasn’t good enough and went out and got a new keeper - he would have dropped him if there wasn’t a transfer window. Pep done a similar thing with Bravo. Heck even Arteta put the spanner in the works with the keepers at Arsenal - it’s now not even an issue.



It’s their poorest start in the oil era.

When I posted Onana had done nothing wrong that was correct at the point I posted. My stream was something silly like 4 minutes behind. Then obviously he made a balls up during that 4 minutes to where my stream caught up.

Liverpool dropped off a cliff when VVD got injured and only just managed to scrape into top 4. That was off the back of winning the league.

We have to contend with Luke Shaw getting injured. (Best English LB ATM) Two of our replacement left backs being injured. AWB being injured and Martinez being injured.

We are essentially missing 3/4 of our starting back 4 and the CB pairings we have had have been miss matched since the beginning of the season.

IF when our injuries come back and we are still having major issues then questions do need to be asked of ETH but it is a little unfair at the moment.

Having AWB, Varane, Martinez, Shaw with Amrabat Infront of them will be a whole different proposition. The bad news we are looking into November before we will even see anything like that coming back so I expect a brutal month in October and we will most likely already be out of the Champions League by then.
 
A brain dump after that ****show and a sleep...

I find it interesting that people appear to hyper focus on the new signings, to pick at them, rather than afford them time

Onana - had a terrible game, he went down early on the chip. the pass before the penalty... His fumble before the second goal was awful too. However his first couple of games were safe and secure when he had a more reliable back line. Does this excuse his flaws, no, but i'm not going to witch hunt after 3 bad games with a terrible makeshift defense and midfield in front. Just like I didn't go after DDG when the witch hunt started in his first few games. Dear god I recall the media and this forum when he was fumbling crosses and passes.. 'he's a light weight, stick thin, scared' etc... DDG remained flawed but he adapted his game and became a solid keeper and remained a good shot stopper due to his agile foot positioning.
Mount - I thought he was ineffective in his first couple of games, last night I saw someone working across the pitch and creating space playing insightful passes. Did they create direct chances, not from what I recall, but the contribution was there more than most and personally I'd be starting him over Bruno if this was classic FM and I wasn't dealing with egos and real life knock on effects around the club.

For me, why isn't more or anyone really...pointing to the 'experienced' squad members for their absolute ineptness and contributions to the performance? Because it's not funny? Because it's all been said? Are we then disregarding it, when it's a massive piece of context that comes down to the contributions of 11 (and problems that were there last year), not 2...

Bruno - I don't mind that he tries an fails at ambitious passes, however you can see when his selfishness kick in, blazing snap shots being impatient, screamed at his own teammates in the aftermath, and once booted the ball at the fans out of frustration. He's the captain
Dalot - Average at best, always has been, always will be. I don't doubt he cares and I don't doubt his work rate but he's below average for a team looking to compete.
Lindelof - Let's be honest, he isn't great but he's better than Maguire.
Casemiro - You can see he's frustrated having to cover roles in the middle. He shouldn't be on his own yet due to injuries he is. He's stretched and it's showing badly as it would for any player completely exposed. was a world of difference when he had support from Hannibal in the first half. Not ideal but was still more combative support to work with him.
Rashford - never will have a footballing brain. He's instinctive at best and unfortunately completely lazy because he's too busy in his own head. 350k a week... jesus christ...
Varane - Just looks exposed amongst this team and finds himself having to stretch his legs all too often. Tried to find a risky pass out at times which often went wrong - but appreciated the efforts try to make quick transitions which I imagine would work in a more stable and predictable team.
----
Hojlund - absolutely brilliant for his experience and time at the club, he's ultimately raw, he will be overcome by more experienced defenders, but he can grow (literally) to be a bit of a beast if his promise maintains the trajectory. Was well impressed given how young. And of course he's not a Haaland, but nobody is and it's unfair to use that as a barometer. Excited to see how he can come on over the years, and I pray to god he stays fit because the club/fans are going to begin to lean on him.
Amrabat - Can't wait to see him in the centre with Casemiro... Will he be a world beater, unlikely, but he's a work horse and he'll free Casemiro to go forward where he was at his best last season.
Hannibal - Raw energetic potential - It's hard to see where he fits in - appears to be a bit of a machine in the middle to disrupt and get possession back and then provide forward reinforcement. I quite like it, but he's also worryingly rash - said during the match, just before half time he made another two rash lunges in quick succession. Which could easily have turned the tie into a nightmare - which it did in the end anyways...

ETH - Has to take some responsibility for how we've ended up with a centre that is so fragile and exposed too - I never rated McTominay or Fred to go up against proper opposition, but he's sold one and the other looks completely shot of being a player from being dropped by ETH... i think he's made a poor judgement here and left us very light in an area that is showing a lot of class across most teams now. He's also holding onto egos who are not performing, we can make assumptions why that is which i've posted about plenty before. At the moment he's hamstrung by injuries but at the very minimum I think Bruno and Rashford should be dropped. Bringing in midfield of Casemiro, Hannibal, Mount (like we had first half) and Antony / Hojlund and Garnacho as the forward three.

Some words for what it's worth amongst the bashing
In somewhat agreement. I just posted on the Club thread and I think it's worth repeating. Our play is too often chaotic in games like this and pedestrian vs more defensive minded teams. That comes back tot he manager not instilling a shape to his team that can be relied on to reset when important things happen in games like, scoring a goal, conceding a goal, having a man sent off. The way our captain plays is inspirational 5%, chaos 75% and petulance 20%. He is too emotional on the pitch which seems odd to criticise him about but there are times in matches when you need control and we don't have it. Liverpool away last season was a classic example. Bruno was trying to win that game at 3-0 down instead of getting the team back to a discipline and shape.
The bottom line is that tactically this is not a coherent team it is a collection of individuals who aren't as good as they think they are.
 
Liverpool dropped off a cliff when VVD got injured and only just managed to scrape into top 4. That was off the back of winning the league.
Yea, he was the only one injured :p Btw, we didn't drop off when VVD got injured. We were still towards the top of the League (if not top?) going into December but then literally all our CB's were out with 6+ month injuries by Jan. Because of the defensive crisis it gets forgotten that our first choice midfield 3 (+ Milner & Keita) all missed 3 months of that season too.
 
Liverpool dropped off a cliff when VVD got injured and only just managed to scrape into top 4. That was off the back of winning the league.
You mean the season where we were playing with our 5th and 6th choice cb's? Remind me what you were saying at the time, was it sympathetic or 'every team gets injuries'?
 
I was really excited for Onana, and occasionally he has glimpses of why we signed him. But I think even his confidence is shot now and my confidence and defence of him is starting to fade.

He makes the goal look huge and can’t seem to dive or take on a player.
His stats for last season were worse than DDG, so we got exactly what was expected.
 
Our injury situation is bad, but it is what it is. We still have a decent team out there and it's been a total shambles.

The best plan in the short term is to hope ETH can turn things around, but the season is pretty much a write-off already.

There's no point doing anything drastic until the club sale situation is resolved. Any new manager will face identical problems and there aren't many available who would be a clear improvement on ETH - unless he has indeed lost the dressing room...
 
@shipinabottle - for me I think it’s because he got rid of a solid keeper who while he had his flaws with playing out. He still was able to do the basics. He’s bought a keeper who let’s be brutally honest has been absolutely terrible. He doesn’t make any saves, he’s horrendous 1 v 1 and it looks like it’s caused carnage and fear into the lads infront of him. It was meant to completely transform the entire club. This weird thing of constantly playing it back to him as well really slows down the play at time - not saying every time but the majority of the time. I looked at some of the heat maps and he’s making almost 100% of pass success when playing outwide close in but I didn’t pay to see how many actually lead to something of note. Just slowing everything down. Last night for example he then started just aimlessly booting the ball up which was cleared/defended with relative ease for the defenders and gave away possession something that we were told he wouldn’t do. Turns out if he’s making 2 yard passes side ways he doesn’t but if that’s it. I appreciate this maybe down to the players not making themselves available or in the right space is that why he decided to just pass straight forward in the hopes that one of them would move into that space? Should someone have been there? I’m not so sure. So it leaves you just with this sideways passing to players in space or hoofing it up. DDG would be just as good at that side of the game will being far better at every other aspect of goal keeping. I tried to view some of DDG numbers and heat maps but as he’s no longer a PL player it won’t show on the lists I have access too.

Also he was a freebee the season before last and paid £50m for him. Crazy. Go for that fee you really need to be hitting the ground running. Look at the criticism that Grealish got, pep was able to drop him and allow to bed him into the team. It’s completely different when you’ve got all your eggs in 1 basket and it’s not working. It causing carnage. There has to come a point where you have to just cut your loss. When DDG started, I’m sure the team were still winning? It wasn’t that much of an issue if it’s happening against Forrest at home when they win the problem is now there are a whole host of teams that are on equal footing or better than this current Utd team.

Mount is pretty similar, it’s like they didn’t watch him at Chelsea. That season they won the CL he was good but that aside. Massive meh. You can appreciate what he does if you look at his numbers and have a masters degree in pressing but for the most and when the team doesn’t press as a unit and cut passing angles. He’s a waste of time. Factor in you pay the money they did for him. The pressure of being at the biggest club in England and playing like that. You’re going to get it from all angles.

That’s why the focus is majorly on them. The other players like Bruno, he was brilliant when he arrived people were comparing him to KDB that’s hilarious now. We now expect him to try hard run around moan at the ref ext so it’s no longer a talking point.

Casemiro - class, we all know and he’s got too much to do so don’t get that much.
 
You mean the season where we were playing with our 5th and 6th choice cb's? Remind me what you were saying at the time, was it sympathetic or 'every team gets injuries'?

Our situation is of no difference. That is the point I am making out. It is too quick to judge what's going on the pitch untill we get the vast majority of players back.

No I wasn't sympathetic because I am a United fan but I understand it now. The difference is Liverpool seemed to get a by in the press. Yet everyone in the media is foaming at the mouth for the stupid headlines.
 
Our situation is of no difference. That is the point I am making out. It is too quick to judge what's going on the pitch untill we get the vast majority of players back.

No I wasn't sympathetic because I am a United fan but I understand it now. The difference is Liverpool seemed to get a by in the press. Yet everyone in the media is foaming at the mouth for the stupid headlines.
Your memory is playing tricks on you. We certainly weren't getting a 'by' from anyone during December to February of that year.
 
@shipinabottle - for me I think it’s because he got rid of a solid keeper who while he had his flaws with playing out. He still was able to do the basics. He’s bought a keeper who let’s be brutally honest has been absolutely terrible. He doesn’t make any saves, he’s horrendous 1 v 1 and it looks like it’s caused carnage and fear into the lads infront of him. It was meant to completely transform the entire club. This weird thing of constantly playing it back to him as well really slows down the play at time - not saying every time but the majority of the time. I looked at some of the heat maps and he’s making almost 100% of pass success when playing outwide close in but I didn’t pay to see how many actually lead to something of note. Just slowing everything down. Last night for example he then started just aimlessly booting the ball up which was cleared/defended with relative ease for the defenders and gave away possession something that we were told he wouldn’t do. Turns out if he’s making 2 yard passes side ways he doesn’t but if that’s it. I appreciate this maybe down to the players not making themselves available or in the right space is that why he decided to just pass straight forward in the hopes that one of them would move into that space? Should someone have been there? I’m not so sure. So it leaves you just with this sideways passing to players in space or hoofing it up. DDG would be just as good at that side of the game will being far better at every other aspect of goal keeping. I tried to view some of DDG numbers and heat maps but as he’s no longer a PL player it won’t show on the lists I have access too.

Also he was a freebee the season before last and paid £50m for him. Crazy. Go for that fee you really need to be hitting the ground running. Look at the criticism that Grealish got, pep was able to drop him and allow to bed him into the team. It’s completely different when you’ve got all your eggs in 1 basket and it’s not working. It causing carnage. There has to come a point where you have to just cut your loss. When DDG started, I’m sure the team were still winning? It wasn’t that much of an issue if it’s happening against Forrest at home when they win the problem is now there are a whole host of teams that are on equal footing or better than this current Utd team.

Mount is pretty similar, it’s like they didn’t watch him at Chelsea. That season they won the CL he was good but that aside. Massive meh. You can appreciate what he does if you look at his numbers and have a masters degree in pressing but for the most and when the team doesn’t press as a unit and cut passing angles. He’s a waste of time. Factor in you pay the money they did for him. The pressure of being at the biggest club in England and playing like that. You’re going to get it from all angles.

That’s why the focus is majorly on them. The other players like Bruno, he was brilliant when he arrived people were comparing him to KDB that’s hilarious now. We now expect him to try hard run around moan at the ref ext so it’s no longer a talking point.

Casemiro - class, we all know and he’s got too much to do so don’t get that much.

@Reuben klang I agree on lots here... Some thoughts to add and consider

Onana - You're right on loads of the points. it's a similar view to the commentators last night, 'what must the defence/team think with him at the back'...

However there's the flip perspective that is just as valid (and it's most likely a mishmash of both)...Onana's.... Imagine having that defence in front of you, which is notoriously shambolic, had the same problems last year when Martinez and Varane didn't play together and exposed DDG who made tons of mistakes, exactly like this - Brentford passing out from the back, fumbles into his own net, miss-dives, everything... memories seem very short on this forum at the moment. It's repetition and yet the blame is some how on the new player? Does a rubbish defence expose his flaws, yes just the same as it would for any keeper. However he was fine last year with a real defence and MOTM in the Champions League final. For me the money shouldn't be part of the debate as a value for money is meaningless when we're only 7 games in.

Mount - is a player that is a part of the whole, not an individual. ETH has already talked about he fits the shape of the team they're transitioning too. This isn't the united of Ole's reign (or Chelsea) where they put individuals on a pitch and say play. ETH is transitioning to something else which i've posted about plenty, this is a long term project. we're 14months into a 3-5 year project. It's an unnecessary spotlight IMO when he's just started and is amongst this chaos of a squad, much like Onana.

@Calpol - ETH has to shoulder the blame here of us being chaotic... he's appointing the captain. He's instilling the drive in the team and whatever he's done hasn't translated to the pitch. For me he's dealing with selfish egos that when they get on that pitch, will lose perspective at the slightest bit of resistance. This is all bleed out from previous recruitment/managers. It won't be over until he's rinsed this squad of the crap and maybe that needs to be Bruno as well, because i don't see him changing. Said it earlier, he reminds me of Ronaldo, self centred and with no perspective for others. and then cries (literally) when it all goes wrong. He's emotionally all over the shop like you were saying. He's not a captain at all.
 
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The soul of Mike Ashley still lingers:

a31tAWD.jpg
 

I guess we are just going to have to agree on my points and disagree on yours (haha).

I mean there is countless situations where a player looks like a world beater in a one off game. It just so happens for him it was in the biggest game of the year. Which is brilliant, all credit too him. He can dine out on that and it’s kind of being used as a reassurance now. Did you not see him in that game against City? You don’t suddenly become crap over night.

Re:mount the player still has to be good enough to be part of the whole. Some players are system players, can follow instructions to a tee like him. Still doesn’t mean he’s any good.
 
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