UEFA CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FINAL ... Bayern Munich v Chelsea ... *** Spoilers ***

Raymond Lin said:
Barcelona, Ajax of Cruff era, Brazil of most eras, Liverpool etc etc...whatever

The point wasn't just Barcelona, the point was pretty football. Come on people, since when do I have to spell out every word? Tummy's point is he doesn't want his team to win ugly, i know what he meant.

"what do Barcelona got anything to do with this?"

Sigh....
Click to expand...

'What do Barcelona have to do with this?' :)

You could have made the point about entertaining football without mentioning Barcelona, no?

It's not 'just' a bout 'pretty' football :)

Chelsea didn't give a tactical masterclass Raymondo, they were very fortunate. As I said, they didn't 'win' that game, Bayern lost it, much like 99' albeit this time on penalties.

It's not bitterness at all :)
 
This whole debate is boring. Whether Chelsea had the right tactics, whether they played entertaining football or whether they deserved to win, you ask simulatorman whether he gives a ****. He's just seen his team win the biggest trophy of them all and he'll be telling people stories about it for years to come and knowing him, he's going to have a fair few pictures to show us all too.

I struggle to believe anybody that says that they'd rather lose playing nice football than win playing ugly. I bet you won't hear a Chelsea fan saying they wish Chelsea attacked Bayern and got smashed 4-0 than pinched it on pens anyway.
 
BaZ87 said:
I struggle to believe anybody that says that they'd rather lose playing nice football than win playing ugly. I bet you won't hear a Chelsea fan saying they wish Chelsea attacked Bayern and got smashed 4-0 than pinched it on pens anyway.
Click to expand...

I'm evidence of this though, to counter your statement.

While, I concede the point that Chelsea could have attacked and gotten comfortably beaten, they could also have won comfortably, no?

I think it's a ~bigger and more widespread problem with English football (and other nations) that they'd rather win ugly. It's a ideological difference.
 
Of course they could have attacked and won. We'll never know what might have been had they played differently but you won't find a Chelsea fan that cares.

And you're honestly saying that you'd rather see you team lose a CL final playing attacking football than for them to win playing negatively? I do not believe that for 1 minute.
 
You're welcome to not believe me :)

I wouldn't want my team to sacrifice playing good football for results. It's a massive ideological thing for me, I wouldn't sacrifice good football (I don't just mean possession football like Barcelona) for bad football and results. Simple.

If that meant that say Wednesday went in to a final of any club tournament and opted away from playing 'good' football, I'd be heart broken. (This is of course on the basis my club could play good football and get to a major final :p)

Seriously, I'd rather see my team play good football and lose out (it's a mentality, an ideology), not giving up on what the club believes in, players believe in and fans believe in to play horrible football and be successful.
 
Ok, well I've seen Liverpool be completely outplayed in a European Cup final but win and then I've seen them dominate a European Cup final but lose. I know which night I'd rather revisit.
 
BaZ87 said:
Ok, well I've seen Liverpool be completely outplayed in a European Cup final but win and then I've seen them dominate a European Cup final but lose. I know which night I'd rather revisit.
Click to expand...

Awesome? Chuffed for you? Not really sure how I'm supposed to react to that, I'm not being sarcastic. I completely get that it's heart breaking watching your team do all the work to get in to such a big game and lose, but I'd rather do that then abandon the good football that got you there for a horrible performance to win.

Besides, for the most part the better footballing sides tend to win these competitions, more often then not anyway. There are always exceptions, for example Greece in the Euro's and countless sides in the Champions League.

I wouldn't want my team to sacrifice good football and being unsuccessful and be bad and successful. Sorry that other people find this hard to understand.
 
BaZ87 said:
This whole debate is boring. Whether Chelsea had the right tactics, whether they played entertaining football or whether they deserved to win, you ask simulatorman whether he gives a ****. He's just seen his team win the biggest trophy of them all and he'll be telling people stories about it for years to come and knowing him, he's going to have a fair few pictures to show us all too.

I struggle to believe anybody that says that they'd rather lose playing nice football than win playing ugly. I bet you won't hear a Chelsea fan saying they wish Chelsea attacked Bayern and got smashed 4-0 than pinched it on pens anyway.
Click to expand...

I completely agree.

Tummy, I think you'd change your tune if it was your team in Chelsea's position.
 
Nope.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Chelsea didn't play 'good' football though in this years champions league, they did in patches but still their performance in the final was almost typical of themselves in Europe. The worse side but still won.

It's like Barcelona getting to the final v Manchester United a few seasons ago, and instead of doing what they do, opting for long ball football to try and ensure a victory. I as a fan, would be heart broken if my team abandoned their footballing ethos, ideology and mentality for a victory.
 
A 'hollow' victory as I mentioned previously, but it would be even more so if my team had sacrificed their footballing ethos for negative, horrible football to win a game.

Don't misunderstand me, I understand why teams do it, I just don't agree with it. I don't think badly of teams for doing so.
 
I don't even think it was bad football really. Yes, they did spend most of their time defending, and no they didn't have many attacks - But I don't think there is anything bad about organised defending, nothing at all. I'd imagine every single Chelsea fan watching that game was on the edge of their seats, and excited as all hell! Hey, even I was and I don't like Chelsea. (Though I always want the English sides to win!)
 
CasKirensys said:
I don't even think it was bad football really. Yes, they did spend most of their time defending, and no they didn't have many attacks - But I don't think there is anything bad about organised defending, nothing at all. I'd imagine every single Chelsea fan watching that game was on the edge of their seats, and excited as all hell! Hey, even I was and I don't like Chelsea. (Though I always want the English sides to win!)
Click to expand...

I enjoy a defensive performance as much as an attacking one, but I also think that it's about balance. If a side is going to set their team out to defend, they should be ambitious and counter attack type thing. (They don't have to, but 'just' defending isn't really a viable tactic in a cup finale, or maybe it is)

I thought Chelsea's tactic didn't work particularly well and once again they lacked ambition going forward.

I said in the Barcelona tie that despite all their defensive work (which again I didn't see as a massive success) Chelsea looked ~very good counter attacking, in fact it was a huge shame that they didn't look to do it more often, which was the frustration. They could have lost that game but by the same margins they could have scored more goals.

I think the final was similar to this.
 
Tummy, i think you are telling porkies should your team ever get to a CL final against an opposition who are stronger with better attacking players than your team playing in their backyard.

An ideology to play pretty and win. We all want that. A fairytale. But we live in reality, RDM knows that and I guess that's the difference between us and him. He has a CL winner's medal, we don't.

That's that really.
 
Raymond Lin said:
Tummy, i think you are telling porkies should your team ever get to a CL final against an opposition who are stronger with better attacking players than your team playing in their backyard.

An ideology to play pretty and win. We all want that. A fairytale. But we live in reality, RDM knows that and I guess that's the difference between us and him. He has a CL winner's medal, we don't.

That's that really.
Click to expand...

Would you like to tell me what number I'm thinking of too?
Would you like to tell me anything else I'm thinking?

Do be quiet Raymond, I've explained that I wouldn't personally want my team to sacrifice good football for bad football at the cost of a victory. Defensive tactics are about balance, as much as attacking tactics are. Chelsea didn't win that game because of some amazing tactically astute game, they 'won' that game because Bayern squandered their chances and essentially lost the game.

No, if we 'all' wanted that, then teams that play bad football wouldn't exist, or rather teams with negative tactics wouldn't. The English mentality in regards to football has been wrong since '66, it will continue to be wrong too, tactically and in terms of mentality off the pitch as much as on it. That however is a discussion for another thread :)
 
No, i won't be quiet. Why would I be, because you say so? Would you be quiet if I ask you to? I don't think so.

Seriously, do you think any Chelsea fan care how Bayern squandered their chances?

What do you think any Chelsea fan say if you ask them the question - "Would you want to go home a loser if your team had more shots on goal on the night?"

Come on, be realistic.

If was one game. They won. All this "oooh, I would've gone out attacking all guns blazing and don't care if I let in 10 at the back as long as it looks good.

Utter garbage. Come on, utter garbage. I wouldn't care if my team played ultra defensive on a 1 off game like the CL final as long as they won, even if they didn't deserve it. It's one off, it's not like I pay £50 every week to see them play like that, if that is the case then I would be annoyed but it is one off.

RDM assessed the situation, 2 centre backs not played together much all season, both had over a month off. 2 midfielders out and basically only 1 striker they can rely on.

Yes, they should go all out attack in Bayern's backyard and leave space at the back for Gomez, Ribery, Robben and Co to have a field day on all that space. No, it wasn't a defensive masterclass, I never said it was, all I said was they played to win with what they had to and they did and rode their luck a little, as with what they did in the semi.

1 off game that can be a Champion's League winner or come home a loser.

History will remember 1 thing.

Chelsea, Champion's League winner 2012.
 
Last edited:
Raymond, are you sober? I'm not being sarcastic or anything.

My point = / = what ever you're talking a bout :)

Don't try and tell me what I'm thinking.

It has nothing to do with letting '10 in at the back so long as it looks good' you clearly either don't understand football well enough, or you've failed to understand what I've said :)

I wouldn't sacrifice the good football, the ethos, the mentality and ideology of my football club to play horrible football and win. I've no idea where you're pulling things like 'oooh, I would've gone out all attacking all guns blazing and don't care if I let in 10 at the back as long as it looks good.'

or 'Would you want to go home a loser if your team had more shots on goal on the night'

I'm pleased your football club has won the champions league, but it doesn't make me over look the short comings in their performance over ~90 minutes, Chelsea were very fortunate not to lose, they played poorly and bad football on the night. They won on penalties. Why does the fact they had a fortunate victory mean that all the failings of the side on the night should be over looked? Ridiculous and hilarious.
 
Last edited:
I am completely sober.


Tummy said:
I wouldn't want my team to win a trophy playing ugly, bad football. I wouldn't want my team to be remembered as that, nor would I want to watch my team play as such.
Click to expand...

That. Don't you remember you said that?

And yes, now you've hit the nail on the head.

90 mins of football. That's all there is.

Pretty, ugly, who the hell cares ?! (except you obviously).

The point to RDM, his players and all of their Chelsea fans (which I am not one btw) is that they wanted to win that 1 single game. That's it. Winning !!!

Why do you think Fabregas left ? Do you think he left because he thought he doesn't play pretty football at Arsenal or do you think he wanted to win more medals?

You can't play attractive football every game against every opponent.
 
Raymond Lin said:
I am completely sober.




That. Don't you remember you said that?

And yes, now you've hit the nail on the head.

90 mins of football. That's all there is.

Pretty, ugly, who the hell cares ?! (except you obviously).

The point to RDM, his players and all of their Chelsea fans (which I am not one btw) is that they wanted to win that 1 single game. That's it. Winning !!!

Why do you think Fabregas left ? Do you think he left because he thought he doesn't play pretty football at Arsenal or do you think he wanted to win more medals?

You can't play attractive football every game against every opponent.
Click to expand...

Barcelona have showed you can stick to your footballing ethos and be successful so you're last point about 'can't play attractive football' is mute.

Yes, what is wrong with what I said? I wouldn't want my side to play like that, nor in a final, however this discussion moved on to talking about how I wouldn't want my team to sacrifice good football, a positive footballing ethos for bad football for results. Something that, for example Barcelona believe in. I have literally no idea why you decided to jump in and try and tell me what I was thinking and further gloat about your champions league victory. Making more daft sweeping comments.

Fabregas left for lots of reasons, mainly because Barcelona was his home town club, the club he grew up at (when not growing up at Arsenal) and where his friends and family are, iirc he always said he would return. What a daft example.

I hit the nail on the head? haha Chelsea did not win the game in ~90 minutes, nor in 120 minutes. < that was the football they played. They didn't play well, they didn't create enough and played bad, defensive football. Chelsea's saving grace over that time was Bayern being wasteful and squandering chances.

See, in a nut shell, that is what half the problem with English football is, 'pretty, ugly who the hell cares' :)
 
No idea where you're going with your discussion. Your most recent posts were made in a discussion that had moved away from 'just' discussing the game and talking about how I don't believe in sacrificing good football for bad, successful football.

No idea why you decided to bring this back to Chelsea, of which I admitted they didn't play 'good' football at any many points during this years Champions league campaign so the example of sacrificing their footballing ethos doesn't really apply. They didn't play good football over 90 minutes, they played poorly, they didn't play good football over 120 minutes, they played poorly. I think that it's not beyond the realm of possibilities to say that Chelsea fans will admit that, but Chelsea kept their cool, calm and scored the penalties that mattered to win the game. They didn't 'win' the game over 90 minutes or 120 minutes, they simply didn't lose. Bayern, once again found themselves in a final, the better side and didn't win.

Your comments a bout 'pretty' football seem misguided, you can play attacking, flair, positive football without having a poor defence. Brasil (a side known for having a 'unbalanced' attacking side) in recent international tournaments have had one of the best, if not best defensive records.

My point re; Chelsea was that for me it's a hollow victory. Be out played, be the worse side and win on penalties. It wasn't a tactical master class, it wasn't a brain wave by Di Mateo. Chelsea got very fortunate due to Bayerns lack of finishing and capitalised from set pieced. They scored all their goals from set pieces.

If you'd like to discuss the wider problem endemic in English football with this attitude of 'it doesn't matter how you play as long as you win' I'd be happy to contribute.

But yeah, can't log in to Overclockers to reply and post this there.

For what ever reason, I'm unable to log back in to Overclockers.

I managed to log in! At last!

Chelsea fans, enjoy your victory. I'm sure you'll all queue up to call me bitter, but I believe the better side on the night was Bayern and just because Chelsea won doesn't put them beyond criticism of their performance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom